	QUESTIONS AND REPLIES
	FEBRUARY 1997
1996
QUESTION NO 67 

QUESTIONS 67, 68 AND 69 WERE ALSO REPLIED TO IN WRITING: SEE HANSARD VOL 10/96 IVORY PAGES 149 - 153

MR J H JEFFERY:  Asks the Premier:

The Province of KwaZulu-Natal opposed the certification of the National Constitution adopted by the National Assembly on 8 May 1996 and attorneys were instructed and council briefed to present argument to the Constitutional Court to this effect on behalf of the Province.

1.	Who instructed the attorneys?

2.	Was the authority given by the Provincial Cabinet, and if so on what date?  If the authority was not given by the Provincial Cabinet, then in terms of what authority were the instructions given?

3.	What was the full amount including disbursements charged by the attorneys who were instructed?

4.	What proportion of this amount was borne by the Province?

5.	Why was the state attorney not instructed in this matter?

THE PREMIER:  Thank you Mr Speaker, and members of the Assembly.  For Question no 67, the reply is as follows: 

Prior authority was not given by the Provincial Cabinet.  However, the Premier acted in terms of Section 147 (1) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993 (Act No. 200 of 1993) (hereinafter referred to as the Constitution) which provides inter alia that:

(1)	The Premier of a province shall be responsible for the observance of the Provisions of this Constitution.....

	By virtue of the said section, I as the Premier, considered myself obliged to ensure that the Constitution passed by the Constitutional Assembly in terms of section 71(1) of the Constitution complies with the Constitutional Principles contained in Schedule 4 of the Constitution which amongst other things provides that the powers and functions of the provinces defined in the Constitution shall not be substantially less than or substantially inferior to those provided for in the Constitution (vide Constitutional Principle XVIII 2.)

	That there was merit in filing the opposing affidavit in respect of certain sections of the Constitution is clearly evidenced by the fact that the Constitutional Court did find that in some instances the extent of the powers of the provinces have been curtailed.  In particular this has been the case in respect of police powers and to a lesser extent, in respect of education, local government and traditional leadership as well as in respect of lotteries and sports pools.  The court felt that reading together the curtailment of powers and the override provision in section 146(2)(b) of the Constitution, the inescapable conclusion was that the powers of the provinces were substantially less and accordingly the new Constitution was not in accordance with CP XVIII 2.

	Considering the provision of the Constitution as well as the decision of the Court in totality I am convinced that I was constitutionally entitled to oppose the certification of the new Constitution because certain sections of the new Constitution did not comply with the Constitutional Principles laid down in the Constitution which the Constitutional Assembly was obliged to adhere to.  Although I am convinced that I acted in the best interest of the Province and I was constitutionally entitled to prosecute the action, I have since requested that the Cabinet approves of my action ex post facto.

3.	The full amount including disbursements is R304 448,40.

4.	This question is not very clear to me.  I do not know what is intended by it.  The attorneys who were briefed acted for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal alone, and accordingly the Province was responsible for the full amount.

5.	In terms of Cabinet Resolution 390 dated 30 August 1995 the KwaZulu-Natal Administration can make use of private attorneys as an alternative to making use of the State Attorney, subject to approval being obtained from Treasury.

	Treasury approval was obtained on 22 July and 3 September 1996.  Over and above that, it must be noted that the State Attorney acted for the Central Government.  If the provincial Government had employed the services of the State Attorney as well, the possibility of conflict of interest could not have been discounted.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, I have a follow-up question.  The hon Premier has said that the attorneys who were briefed acted for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal alone.

I refer the Premier to the Constitutional Court judgment in this matter in the certification of the Constitution under appearances.  It is Inkatha Freedom Party and KwaZulu-Natal Province, Advocate D Hodes SC, Advocate D Unterhalter and Advocate R F van Rooyen instructed by Friedman and Falconer.

I also refer the Premier to a document which is the supplementary written argument by the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and the Inkatha Freedom Party on certain provisions of the Labour Relations Act which was submitted as part of the argument.  At the back it is signed by Peter Hodes SC and R F van Rooyen, Counsel for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and the Inkatha Freedom Party and underneath them is Friedman and Falconer, Attorneys for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and the Inkatha Freedom Party.

So, Mr Speaker, to the hon Premier, I think it is clear that the attorneys who were briefed were not acting alone for the Province, they were also acting for the IFP.  Was the hon Premier aware of that or has he been misled by his attorneys?

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, so far as the account is concerned and so far as the work that was done for this Province was concerned, that was the charge and that is what those attorneys were acting for.

I am now informed that there were some other activities appertaining to some other parties other than the Government of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal which were settled by those parties which have nothing to do with us here.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  One more last follow-up question.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, you know, the statement is the attorneys acted for the Province alone.  Is the Premier then withdrawing that statement and accepting that that was incorrect, that the House was not given the correct information?  I mean, what I do not understand is if he says he is now aware that they acted for other people, is it because of what I have said or was he aware before he came into this House?  If he was not aware, did the attorneys tell him that they were acting for the Province alone and not for anyone else?  Did they not tell him that they were acting for the IFP as well given his capacity as IFP Chair?

THE PREMIER:  The attorneys have informed me that with regard to the disbursement of R304 448,04 they were acting for the Province only.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, shall we therefore proceed to the next question please?

QUESTION NO 68 

MR J H JEFFERY:  Asks the Premier:

The Premier of KwaZulu-Natal instructed attorneys to oppose the certification of the National Constitution adopted by the National Assembly on 11 October 1996 in the Constitutional Court.

1.	Was the authority to oppose the certification and oppose the Constitution given by the Provincial Cabinet and if so on what date?

	If the authority was not given by the Provincial Cabinet, then in terms of what authority did the Premier give the instructions?

2.	What was the full amount including disbursements charged by the attorneys who were instructed?

3.	What proportion of this amount was borne by the Province?

4.	Why was the state attorney not instructed in this matter?

THE PREMIER:  The reply to No 1 is the Premier.  Prior authority was not given by the Provincial Cabinet.  However, the Premier acted in terms of section 147(1) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1993, Act No 200 of 1993, hereinafter referred to as the Constitution, which provides inter alia that:

(1)	The Premier of a province shall be responsible for the observance of the Provisions of this Constitution ...

	This is also entrenched in section 127(1) of the new Constitution, incidentally.

	By virtue of the said section, I as the Premier, considered myself obliged to ensure that the Constitution passed by the Constitutional Assembly in terms of section 71(1) of the Constitution complies with the Constitutional Principles contained in Schedule 4 of the Constitution which amongst other things provides that the powers and functions of the provinces defined in the Constitution shall not be substantially less than or substantially inferior to those provided for in the Constitution (vide Constitutional Principle XVIII 2.)
	
	As the Constitutional Court had found that in some instances the extent of the powers of the provinces have been curtailed.  I was convinced that the Constitutional Assembly had not addressed the shortcomings and I had felt that the Province should oppose the certification of the new Constitution.  The Cabinet has approved of the action ex post facto.

2.	The account has not been received from the attorneys.

3.	This question is not clear to me.  If by it, it is intended that the Province of KwaZulu-Natal jointly opposed the new Constitution with either another person/s or party or parties, that is not so.  The attorneys who were briefed acted for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal alone and accordingly the Province was responsible for the full amount.

4.	In terms of Cabinet Resolution 390 dated 30 August 1995 the KwaZulu-Natal Administration can make use of private attorneys as an alternative to making use of the State Attorney, subject to approval being obtained from Treasury.  Treasury approval was obtained on 22 July and 3 September 1996.  Over and above that, it must be noted that the State Attorney acted for the Central Government.  If the Provincial Government had employed the services of the State Attorney as well, the possibility of conflict of interest could not have been discounted.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Jeffery.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, counsel in the second certification matter, I understand, acted for both the Inkatha Freedom Party and the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and as far as I understand, there was no difference in the argument presented on behalf of the IFP to that of argument presented on behalf of the Province.  It was the same argument.  They would stand up and say they were representing both parties.

I put it to the hon Premier that this Province has been used to fund essentially Inkatha Freedom Party legal cases.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Premier?

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to indicate that the charges that have come to KwaZulu-Natal as a Province have been charges costed to us by the attorneys for the work that they have done for us and there has not been a combination in terms of charges of what was done for us or for any other party.  Other parties that might have been charged or that might have been using the same set of attorneys would have had their charges sent over to them different from the charges that were sent to KwaZulu-Natal Government.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Yes, Dr Sutcliffe?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, could I suggest that the hon Premier support that we set up an investigation into this matter to actually ensure that there in fact has been the proper charges.  It is very clear that the Premier's response is not the same as the response that was given in that court, and the Premier has given that.  Could we not suggest that this matter then is a matter that actually is investigated properly and a report brought to the ...

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Just before the Premier replies.  The Chief Whip please.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think the Rules relating to question time are supplementary questions that arise out of the answer.  I would submit that the points raised by Dr Sutcliffe should be raised in another forum or another place but not now.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, I raised a supplementary question.  I did elaborate.  It is a supplementary question that given the fact that there appears to be differences around this matter, that these responses are not the complete responses.  The supplementary question is, would the Premier agree to setting up a committee to investigate this matter.

THE SPEAKER:  That is another issue altogether.  Has the Premier anything to say?

MR P POWELL:  Mr Speaker, can I be recognised, sir?  My apologies.  I have risen on two occasions.

THE SPEAKER:  With all apologies, Mr Powell.

MR P POWELL:  Mr Speaker, thank you.  On a point of order.  There have been two interjections by members here which do not qualify as questions.  Can you please make a ruling on the nature of the questions and their unsuitability.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  How far shall we go now?  In fact I am called upon to rule whether another member, besides the one that read the question, can in fact, like the Doctor here, put his own issue on.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it is a parliamentary tradition that members are allowed to make interjections.  That is part of the rough and tumble and the fun of being in Parliament.  Secondly, we congratulate the hon member Mr Powell on his maiden speech.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Powell, before the Premier.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please!

MR P POWELL:  There seems to have been some misunderstanding on the side of the hon Whip from the opposition.  I am referring to the contribution made by the hon member Mr Jeffery and Dr Sutcliffe.  I am asking for a ruling as to whether the content of their contribution constituted a question or whether they were providing information to the House.

THE SPEAKER:  In the case of Dr Sutcliffe it was not a question.  No, it was not a question.  It was a request, therefore it is ruled out.  Thanks, Mr Powell, for raising that issue.  Please, Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I very much appreciate the concerns that have been expressed by the hon members from the ANC.  As I was saying before the disturbance, I very much appreciate the concerns that the members from the ANC have raised and I think it should be simple to enquire from the attorneys what really happened.  I would obviously not like to see us here in this Province paying for another party, whatever the other party might be.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order please!

THE PREMIER:  But no doubt the assurance that was given to us was that in fact the charges that were made were charges appertaining to the work done for this Province and that is that.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for that.  Now shall we then proceed please.  We are now on questions to the Premier.  New questions for oral reply by the hon Mr Nel to the Premier.

QUESTION NO 69 

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Asks the Premier:

As a follow up to the reply of the Premier to Question 19 of 1 April 1996:

For each of the 34 accounts from the legal consultants please provide the following information:

1.	A full description of the work the consultant(s) were requested to perform;

2.	A breakdown of the consultants account;

	(a)	In terms of what authority were the instructions given?

3.	Were the consultants instructed by only the Premier's Department or were the consultants instructed by other parties for the same task?

	If so:	(a)	Who were the other parties?

		(b)	Did they make any contribution towards the consultants, and if so what portion of the account was paid by those parties?

4.	Why was the State Attorney not instructed?  A full motivated reason is requested with regard to each case.

THE PREMIER:

WRITTEN REPLY:

1.	The question came at a time when the official who had prepared the initial reply, from which this question emanated, was and is still on leave.  The documents on which he had based his answers were therefore not readily available.  Recourse had to be made to the attorneys who had rendered the services for the necessary documentation.  For example, the amounts - R1 957; R50 000; R2 432,96 and R85 000 referred to in the initial reply could to date not be accounted for.

	A schedule containing the names, a full description of the work performed, as well as the payments made to the Attorneys concerned, is submitted hereunder for your information.  From the information contained in the schedule it will be noted that detail in respect of accounts no. 6, 14, 27 and 33 referred to above have not been included as documentation related to these accounts is still to be accumulated.  A reply based on those amounts will be submitted as soon as circumstances permit.



NO


LEGAL
CONSULTANTS
FULL DESCRIPTION OF THE WORK PERFORMED ON BEHALF OF THE ADMINISTRATION
 PAYMENTS REFLECTING LEGAL FEES AS WELL AS DISBURSEMENTS
 1
Friedman and
Friedman
Review of judgment regarding sufficient consensus
R4 604,50
Legal Fees: R4 604,50
 2
Friedman and
Friedman
Supreme Court action:
Babanango Farms Dispute
R30 000
(Settlement figure)
 3
Friedman and Friedman
-Constitutional Advice
-Mediation Talks
-Draft Public Service Act and involvement of KwaZulu Government in the Election Process
R203 921,42
Legal Fees: R33 656,92
Disbursements: 
   R170 264,50
 4
Jenny Friedman
Additional payment in respect of previous payment made for services rendered
R63,79
Legal Fees: R63,79
 5
Friedman and
Friedman
Constitutional advice rendered by Prof. Oliver
R35 971,19
Legal Fees: R769,50
Disbursements: 
   R35 201,69
 6
Friedman and
Friedman

R1957
Legal Fees:
Disbursements:
 7
Friedman and
Friedman
Legal advice obtained regarding the state of emergency in KwaZulu-Natal
R33 020,67
Legal Fees: R13 038,75
Disbursements: 
   R19 981,92
 8
Friedman and
Friedman
Goldstone Eskom Arms Deal
R23 675,05
Legal Fees: R11 324,76
Disbursements: 
   R12 350,29
 9
Friedman and
Friedman
Goldstone: Legal fees incurred on behalf of the KwaZulu Government
(I) hearings on violence;
(ii) on allegations against the KwaZulu Police and;
(iii) ANC allegations against transitional structures
R34 096,58
Legal Fees: R6 229,10
Disbursements: 
   R27 867,48
10
Friedman and
Friedman
Legal advice obtained in regard to the drafting of the Public Service Act
R15 521,21
Disbursements: 
   R15 521,21
11
Jenny Friedman
Enquiry by the Goldstone Commission: shooting of Zulus on the Reef
R40 000
The full amount was paid to the Attorneys as an Advance in anticipation of forthcoming expenditure
12
Friedman and
Friedman
Goldstone Commission: legal fees incurred on behalf of the KwaZulu Government: KwaZulu Police
R16 433,40
Legal Fees: R4 041,30
Disbursements: 
   R12 392,10
13
Friedman and
Falconer
Ngwane Tribal Dispute
R8 092,73
Legal Fees: R3 591
Disbursements: 
   R4 501,73
14
Friedman and
Falconer
Constitutional Advice
R19 666,09
Legal Fees: R484,50
Disbursements: 
   R19 181,59
15
Jenny Friedman

R50,00
Legal Fees:
Disbursements:
16
Friedman and
Friedman
State vs Major O Y Zama
R2 532,96
The full amount was paid in respect of Secretarial Services
17
Friedman and
Falconer
State vs Major O Y Zama
R2 729,73
Legal Fees: R2 729,73
18
Friedman and
Falconer
State vs Major O Y Zama
R55 671,33
The full payment was made to the Attorneys to be held in trust.
19
Friedman and
Falconer
Opinion in respect of Public Service Regulations
R6 103,93
Legal Fees: R6 103,93
20
Friedman and
Falconer
Application: House of Traditional Leaders
R43 989,28
Legal Fees: R19 864,50
Disbursements: 
   R24 124,78
21
Friedman and
Falconer
Legal services rendered in respect of the motion instituted by the ANC and others in the Supreme Court of SA.  That the KwaZulu Act on House of Traditional Leaders No. 7 of 1994 is declared unconstitutional
R116 472,84
Legal Fees: R49 194,42
Disbursements: 
   R67 278,42
22
Friedman and
Falconer
State vs Major O Y Zama
R6 446,01
Legal Fees: R6 446,01
23
Friedman and
Falconer
Payment of legal cost re King Goodwill Zwelithini Zulu vs the Premier of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and the Minister of Conservation and Traditional Authorities.
R83 474,91
Legal Fees: R32 775
Disbursements: 
   R50 699,91
24
Friedman and
Falconer
State vs Major O Y Zama
R24 246,60
Legal Fees: R16 530
Disbursements: 
   R10 716,60
25
Friedman and
Falconer
Payment of Legal fees in respect of an opinion on various aspects relating to the bill relating to the Remuneration of Traditional Leaders and various aspects relating thereto.
R84 468,84
Legal Fees: R36 061,62
Disbursements: 
   R48 407,22
26
Friedman and
Falconer
Legal Advice regarding Possession of firearms by Traditional Leaders, KwaZulu-Natal
R5 469,94
Legal Fees: R132,58
Disbursements: 
   R5 337,36
27
Friedman and
Falconer

R5 469,94
Legal Fees:
Disbursements:
28
Friedman and
Falconer
Payment of Legal costs:
Opinion regarding the Provincial Electoral Legislation.
R20 066,20
Legal Fees: R3 670,80
Disbursements: 
   R16 395,40
29
Friedman and
Falconer
Payment of Legal Fees in respect of a legal opinion sought from the attorney on the possibility of setting up a commission of enquiry to investigate the violence in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal
R2 873,94
Legal Fees: R1 755,60
Disbursements: 
   R1 118,34
30
Friedman and
Falconer
Attorneys were instructed to acquire an opinion on the possibility of pursuing litigation in the Constitutional Court against the provision contained in the Local Government Transition Act Second Amendment Bill.
R8 561,40
Legal Fees: R4 286,40
Disbursements: 
   R4 275
31
Brokensha, Meyer and Partners
Payment of Legal fees in respect of an opinion on the issue of the East Griqualand Border Dispute.
R27 117,14
Legal Fees: R14 332,14
Disbursements: 
   R12 785
32
Brokensha, Meyer and Partners
Attorneys were instructed to acquire an opinion on the legalities of whether or not the Premier is competent to declare or alter the Capita Status of Pietermaritzburg.
R13 680
Legal Fees: R3 990
Disbursements: 
   R9 690
33
N Oliver

R85 000
Legal Fees:
Disbursements:
34
Friedman and
Falconer
National Education Bill
R182 803,71
Legal Fees: R76 961,40
Disbursements: 
   R105 842,28

2.	The information requested in this section of the request has been incorporated into the schedule above.

2(a)	Authority for the appointment of the attorneys who acted on behalf of the Province in respect of Constitutional matters was given by myself as the Premier and was given in terms of section 147(1) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993 (Act No. 200 of 1993)(hereinafter referred to as the Constitution) which provides inter alia that:-

	(1)	The Premier of a Province shall be responsible for the observance of the Proviso of this Constitution.....

	By virtue of the said section, I as Premier considered myself obliged to ensure that the Constitution passed by the Constitutional Assembly in terms of section 71(1) of the Constitution complied with the Constitutional Principles contained in Schedule 4 of the Constitution which amongst other things provides that the powers and functions of the Province defined in the Constitution shall not be substantially less than or substantially inferior to those provided for in the Constitution (vide Constitutional Principle XV1112).

	That there was merit in obtaining Legal advice in respect of certain sections of the Constitution is clearly evidenced by the fact that the Constitutional Court did find in certain instances that the powers of the Province have been curtailed.  In particular this has been the case in respect of police powers and to a lesser extent in respect of education, local government and traditional leadership as well as lotteries and sports pools.

	Although I am convinced that I acted to the best interest of the Province and I was constitutionally entitled to prosecute the action, I have since requested that the Cabinet approves of my action ex post facto vide Cabinet Resolution No. 493 dated 11 December 1996.

	As far as the authority granted in respect of the appointment of Attorneys to act on behalf of the Province in respect of matters other than constitutional matters, I can confirm that in terms of Cabinet Resolution No. 390 dated 1995, the KwaZulu-Natal Administration had approved the continued use of private attorneys in addition to the State Attorney.  This decision was taken subject to approval being obtained from Treasury.

3.	No other parties were involved in the appointment of or instructions given to the attorneys.  Therefore the Department of the Premier was solely responsible for the payment of all the accounts.

4.	As mentioned in par. 2 supra, the Cabinet approved of the use of private Attorneys as an alternative to that of the State Attorney, subject to the approval of the Treasury being obtained for the expenditure.  It must be noted that in certain cases the State Attorney acted for the central Government.  If the Provincial Government had employed the services of the State Attorney as well, the possibility of conflict of interest could not have been discounted.

1997
QUESTION NO 1

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Premier:

Whether any arrangements have been made for celebration of the Zulu King's Silver Jubilee; alternatively, if arrangements are still pending, when are they to be finalised?

THE PREMIER:  The question from Mr Nel with regard to the King's Silver Jubilee.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Let us have no sessions.  I thought I made it plain the other day, that we have an orderly Parliament here.  It is not going to be allowed for people to have their own Parliaments quite apart from what is going on elsewhere.  Please hold your peace and see to it that the dignity, the code of this House is in not derogated.  The hon Premier please.

THE PREMIER:  The answer to Mr Nel's question.  No arrangements have been made for the celebration of the King's silver jubilee.  These arrangements will be made and finalised when relations between His Majesty and the House of Traditional Leaders have been normalised.

THE SPEAKER:  That answers that question.  Mr Nel has a follow-up.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, in response to the Premier's reply.  Is it appropriate that such arrangements be finalised after the jubilee has come and gone?

MR V A VOLKER:  A golden opportunity.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Premier.

THE PREMIER:  The answer to the question by Mr Nel is yes, it is appropriate and in fact the appropriateness has in fact been confirmed by His Majesty, the King himself when he has stated, and that is a public statement, that it could be held any time in the course of this year.  I think His Majesty, the King, appreciates the fact that the most important issue was not that the King was installed on 3 December 1971 but that on 3 December 1996 he finished 25 years on the throne and that following upon that a celebration at an appropriate and suitable moment, the 25th Anniversary could be celebrated.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Oh no, wait a minute.  Mr Rajbansi, is that a follow-up question?  Yes, yes, that is the man who should get a chance.  Yes, Mr Mkhwanazi, I have not heard you.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you very much.  A follow-up question, Mr Speaker.  From what the Premier has said, the hold up was as a result of abnormal relations between His Majesty and the House of Traditional Leaders.  Since this matter also is handled by the Legislature, are there any efforts made by say the Legislature, through the Cabinet, to see that the relations are normalised as soon as possible, since this is a very serious matter that there are abnormal relations between His Majesty and the House of Traditional Leaders?

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Premier?

THE PREMIER:  Thank you.  I would like to state this, that when we are dealing with human relations we must have some sensitivity about it all and that details about that, may not be in the interests of the very pursuit that we have in mind to be disclosed publicly.

I would like us to be sensitive to it and know that so far as relations are concerned a number of members from this very Assembly from in fact the Cabinet, from both sides of the political divide have been at it.  Several meetings have been held and to that extent I am sure that my hon Minister of Works, Reverend Mtetwa, my hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, Mr Zuma, could tell you chapter and verse about the whole issue.

I do not think it would be wise to come and talk and say on such and such a day this is what was covered, such and such a day this is the problem that arose.  That is not what I would countenance. I would like this House to accept the fact that we are busy dealing with those relations and that it would not help us to go into them in this forum.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Then that disposes of questions No 1.  Then there is question No 2, the perennial question.

QUESTION NO 2

MR A RAJBANSI:  Asks the Premier:

How many Indians, Coloureds, Africans and Whites are employed in:

(a)	In the Premier's office?

(b)	In the Department of the Premier?

THE PREMIER:  The answer is in the Premier's office, not the Department, in the Premier's office there are:
 
(a)	In the Premier's office:

Indians
Coloureds
Africans
Whites
Total
	0
	0
	10
	2
	12

(b)	In the Department

Indians
Coloureds
Africans
Whites
Total
	19
	20
	218
	58
	315

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That should satisfy the hon Rajbansi.  Any further leading up question?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Does the hon Premier have any programme to improve on the rainbowness character of the administration and his Ministry.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  It is rainbow.  It is already rainbow.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I notice the hon Chief Whip is adding one more point to his foolhardiness.

THE SPEAKER:  Please, Mr Rajbansi, just attend to your question and listen to the Premier.  There will be many people who make remarks.  Yes, Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  May I also just raise a supplementary question because I would like to know whether if the rainbow is the model, whether that can in fact be accepted, because there is no black in the rainbow nor are there whites in the rainbow?  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  That is a very relevant question really.  Yes, Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Yes, I appreciate the question raised by the hon Mr Volker, but I do not think it would be correctly directed at me.  Maybe the question might be directed at our hon Mr Rajbansi, but then he is not on the floor to answer just now.  The question might yet be asked and answered outside.  I am not asking Mr Rajbansi to interrupt me now.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER:  I understand what Mr Rajbansi is talking about.  I appreciate it, he is concerned that some Indian members of society should be there and I think ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  Dr Buthelezi said so, not me.

THE SPEAKER:  If the Raj will hold his tongue for some time.

THE PREMIER:  I think that as time goes on they will come in and I do not have a programme of saying by 10 March 1997, I must have so many Indians here.  That is not the point.  The point is we are open to have Indians and Coloureds and Whites and Africans and so on, Chinese too.  Whoever are members of our society depending on availability of material that we require.

I think we must also note, Mr Speaker, that so far as we are concerned the most important thing is not the colour in terms of service, it is not racial characteristics in terms of service but it is the ability with regard to that particular aspect.

I have said it time and again and I will keep saying it, that when it comes to operating on me, and there are many African doctors, I will not say I want somebody to operate on me just because he is Black.  I will rather have the best person to operate on me whether he is black or yellow or green or whatever.  It is the ability of the person.  I think the operation done on Mr Yeltsin in Russia indicated that.  Even though Russia and America are not such great friends, the great heart surgeon, Professor De Bakey was imported from America to do the operation there.  So let us not be too racially inclined.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  We will proceed.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Proceed please.  Then we are on question 3.  I am afraid that is for a written reply.

THE PREMIER:  The question from Mrs Galea.

THE SPEAKER:  We will have the one from Mrs Galea please.

SEE QUESTION NO 17 ON PAGE 52

QUESTION NO 3

MR A RAJBANSI:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the appointment of the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Board:

(a)	What are the names of the selection panel?
(b)	On whose suggestion did he choose the selection panel?
(c)	Did he supply the selection panel with a short list of applicants?
(d)	What were the recommendations of the selection panel?
(e)	Did the Premier consult the Finance Portfolio Committee on the appointment of the Chairperson or Duty Chairperson of the Board?

NO REPLY RECEIVED BY HANSARD AS AT 30 APRIL 1997.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  These are questions which do not appear here.  I hope that ends the question of the order.  Yes, Mr Nel?

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, it seems to me that inadvertently the hon Premier has now answered a question that was going to be on the Order Paper for tomorrow.  There are two other questions for oral reply.  The one by the hon member Mvelase and the other one by the hon member Mr Rajbansi, Nos 4 and 5 which surely should be answered now.

THE SPEAKER:  Let me have a look.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I have not given this hon member any mandate to speak on my behalf.  [LAUGHTER]  I am perfectly capable.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, in that event, I think Mr Rajbansi should be very grateful that he has some following in the House.  [LAUGHTER]  Please, may I see these questions.  Are they the ones that were left out per chance?  I do not have them here.

MR W U NEL:  Page 3.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh yes, they were supposed to be oral.  Well, in that event, the Minister of Economic Affairs.

QUESTION NO 4

MR V V MVELASE:  Asks the Minister of Economic Affairs:

KwaZulu Transport has increased its monthly and weekly tariffs by 100 percent.  Some UThukela Regional councillors went to see the Operations Manager to protest against the increment.

The Operations Manager informed the Councillors that the increment was proposed after the withdrawal of the grant which was paid to the Company for the past 20 years by the KwaZulu Government.

(i)	Could the hon Minister explain to this House why was the grant withdrawn?

(ii)	Is the government aware that there are planned protest marches which might destabilise the peace process of the Province and fuel new violence again?

(iii)	Could the Cabinet review this matter before trouble starts?

DR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Before dealing with the specific questions raised, I will first comment on the background relating to the question:

*	KwaZulu Transport increased its fares on the 07 January 1997 as follows:-

	Casual Cash Fares:		7,5% to 10%

	Scholar Fares:			10% to 15%

	Weekly & Monthly 
		prepaid tickets		NO INCREASE (excluding Durban branch where they were increased by 5%)

Scholars fares increase was the customary annual increment to coincide with the New School year.

The increase in casual fares was implemented to recover the 24 cent/litre diesel price increase which had occurred since July 1996 that the company could no longer absorb.

*	Before introducing any of the above, or indeed any fare increase, a detailed and lengthy public information campaign is conducted that includes notification to all relevant representative bodies and the use of the media.  In the case of the January increase the fuel price issue was explicitly detailed in the publicity campaign.  No reference was made to the removal of any fictitious KwaZulu Government grant of 20 years standing.

	*	Mr F J Scott, the Operations Manager of KZT, does not recall who informed the Counsellor that the increment was as a result of the withdrawal of the grant paid to the company by the former KwaZulu Government.

(i)	No grant was ever paid to the KZT for this operation in the Thukela Region.  However, the KwaZulu Government, and subsequently the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Government, did provide financial assistance to enable the company to meet operational losses.

(ii)	The Department is not aware of planned protest marches, and no part of the Government has informed us about this.  We are therefore not aware of the plans.

(iii)	As there was no grant paid for the service before, and therefore no grant which was discontinued, it is not possible for Cabinet to review the matter.  I need, however, to state that Cabinet has over the past year, provided financial assistance to KZT to prevent it from being liquidated.

If further details are required, Mr F J Scott, Operational Manager of KZT, is prepared to discuss the matter further.

I have a suspicion that there has been some confusion in terms of the information of a problem that arose in relation to the KZT.  There was no subsidy provided by the National Government, beginning from the days of negotiations and transitional authority, which gave rise to a crisis in terms of the company and occasionally, and it was ad hoc, the company had trouble and came to say, "Could we get some money".  I always went to the Cabinet to request on an ad hoc basis because there was no budget, also there was no system with which you could deal with that money.

After a lot of debate and argument Cabinet would then say, "Fine, we could not allow the company to collapse" and there would be some money given for the assistance I have referred to.  Given the profile and the problem of the company, Cabinet then decided to appoint a consultancy company to look at the company itself as to what could be done because there was a problem with this frequent request for financial assistance.

Towards the end of last year, as the reports were coming, the company had decided that as from November that ad hoc kind of granting is not going to continue.  It was not something that was part of the system and that was also timed to the report of the consultancy company.  It is possible that some people got that information and thought it was a grant which was almost like a budgeted thing and which has been withdrawn.  I think it was misinformation.  That is the situation.  There will be a full report at the right time as to what are we doing with the KZT now as a company which would be a follow-up to that report.

I just thought I should touch on that one, because my suspicion is that there was misinformation insofar as what was ad hoc as if there was a permanent arrangement that was being made and that is why the questions arose.

I would therefore finally say that if there are people who are protesting, of which my colleague is aware, I think as a member of Parliament he will assist a great deal to persuade people not to.  If there are problems we could talk.  We have always wanted to engage and discuss any other problem that arises.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Yes, Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, in response to what the hon Minister has just said and the Cabinet resolution of November, is the Minister able to give us the assurance that in fact they will be able to carry out that resolution and not make any further ad hoc payments to KZT?

THE SPEAKER:  That should not be difficult for the Minister to reply to.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Cabinet is very determined to do so, and I think since that resolution there has been a meeting with the consulting company.  In fact the report, as it would be given not now, later, it will indicate that the work that has been done in turning around the company, we went further than breaking even.  I think it is beginning to make some profits and therefore that to me guarantees that that will never happen again.  If it does there will be some mishap and we will be able to report that.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.  I hope we are through with the first question and the second question or do you have a follow-up on the question?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Follow-up question, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  A follow-up on the question?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes.  In the light of the answers given by the hon Minister and in the light of the fact that the welfare of half a million workers and school children is of importance.  Is the hon Minister prepared to make representation to the National Minister to ensure that this service continues?

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Yes, we have in fact done so.  We have made numerous representations as a result of that consideration to the National Minister and will continue to do so.  There is a scheme which is being worked out at the national level insofar as bus subsidies are concerned.  We believe that in fact it is going to be coming into operation this year, if I am right, and therefore the matter has been addressed.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Mr Speaker, just as a follow-up as well to the hon Minister.  We all know that KZT is a company where the shares are held by the Province.  I think that is of concern to us.  I am pleased to hear that there has been a turnaround but I want to ask the question.  The cost of the consultants is that being charged now as a charge against the company's overhead, I know staff were retrenched, or is it a separate charge altogether?

The second side, I want to know, the Minister alluded to commuter transport subsidies.  For two years I believe this should have come down to the Province.  As yet commuter transport subsidies are not under the control of the Province.  Can the Minister tell us when those will come down to the control of the Province because I think it is vital for KwaZulu Transport?

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon Minister.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It was the Government that took the decision to engage the consultants with an aim to solve the problem and certainly the Government had to foot the bill for that.  It was necessary for the Government to do so because, as I said, we were having these ad hoc grants that were quite big.  We then wanted to address the issue so that we do not continue.  The company was not in a position by then to foot the bill or the monies accruing from there.  The Government therefore took full responsibility and I think it was a responsible decision by the Government.  We are actually happy that we have made progress on that one.

Insofar as the issue of the subsidies, unfortunately from the Economic Affairs and Tourism in the Province where I am sitting, I am not in a position to answer the question because that relates to the National Transport Minister who could answer the question appropriately.  Therefore I regret that I cannot help the colleague.  Probably the Minister of Transport at the provincial level could help to answer that question because that is his domain.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Is the hon member satisfied, that is Mr Edwards, with that reply?

MR B V EDWARDS:  Mr Speaker, could I ask then relating to the consultancies, what is the total amount expended ...

MR J H JEFFERY:  On a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Usually it is two follow-up questions.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Yes.

MR J H JEFFERY:  This is a fifth in total.  What Mr Edwards is now doing is on to question No 4.  So could we have some consistency as to whether this is actually an interpellation or what it is because usually it is only two follow-up questions.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, there you are.  Can you clarify please, Mr Edwards?  He has no desire to proceed.  That settles that question therefore.  There is the last one of the whole lot, question No 5 by whom other than the hon Mr Rajbansi.  The hon Minister of Education and Culture in response thereto.

QUESTION NO 5

MR A RAJBANSI:  Asks the Minister of Education and Culture:

(a)	What is the total value of orders that were placed for the purchase of text books by the Department from 1 January 1995 to the latest available date?

(b)	Which dealers are the recipients of the orders?

(c)	Were disadvantaged booksellers considered?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, I rise to answer this question for the third or fourth time now.

(a)	The total value of orders that were placed for the purchase of text books by the Department amounts to R574 446 626,63.

	This is the amount used for text and prescribed books.

(b)	The recipients of the orders in accordance with contract ZTB 1349/94-97 are as follows:

	1.	Acadia Publishers
	2.	Rygills
	3.	Nasou
	4.	Via Afrika

(c)	With reference to Tender Board Circular No. 1/1995, all contracts that were entered into by the Department had to be honoured until the expiry date of such a contract.  At present a contract for the supply of text books is in place, which will expire on 31 March 1997.  It therefore follows that no new tenders had to be entered into nor could any other contractor be accommodated while the present is still in force.



TRANSLATION:   Mr Speaker.  I am answering this question for the third time now.  Therefore I again give the same answers.  I do not know the hon member could possibly have other questions which he had omitted in the previous questions.  Thank you.   T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, the question was put forward by Mr Rajbansi.  So he has the preference to Mr Nel.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Arising out of the answers given and the preliminary comment by the Minister, may I know on which previous occasions have these questions been answered, particularly in relation to the previous session where a question was asked for practically six months?

Question 1.  Is there a procurement policy to assist new entrepreneurs and disadvantaged small entrepreneurs in relation to the allocation of this R575m?

Question No 2.  Is it the policy of the Department to allow publishers and wholesalers to compete with retailers?

Question No 3.  Has the hon Minister checked that these three or four bookshops that received the total of R575m order is fact one bookshop?

The last question.  Is the hon Minister prepared to appoint a committee to probe this issue?

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  The hon Minister of Education and Culture.


TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, one should address this matter in the Zulu language because it was previously addressed in the English language.  The Department attempts to do everything in its power to be fair when it gives out tenders.  When they were given out I think we were fair.  There is now a new procedure.  We should observe what is in the English language known as Affirmative Action.

We do try that, but I am one of those Departments which are concerned.  I even reported that to the hon Dr Ngubane.  That led to the hon Dr Ngubane making an arrangement at Cabinet discussion whereby consideration was given for small companies to be able to get something.

There is work being done at the moment and the purpose if this work being done is to see to it that small companies can benefit.  The thing is that here we combine publishers and retailers.  We perhaps do not see it as such.  We submit it as it has been presented as needs - perhaps specifications for tenders.   T/E

That perhaps the companies registered here - it is said most of them have been registered - but it is only one company.  But we did not find it to be as such.  Again we consider mostly the prices and what sort of people are going to get tenders.

If I may just recap, Mr Speaker.  I would say we are doing our best to look at the interests of the small companies and we are very much interested in the process that has been set afoot by the Minister of Finance and we want to co-operate with him and we do not want to disadvantage any person.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, may I give the opportunity to Mr Nel please, before you.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, arising from the hon Minister's reply and the indication that the existing contracts expire on 31 March of this year, may I ask whether tenders have been awarded for the period starting on 1 April?  If so, to whom?  If they have not yet been awarded when will such a process take place?

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  No tenders have been awarded for any new companies as yet.  We are working on that and that will be announced as soon as it is in place.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In the light of the fact that the hon Minister has indicated that he was not aware that all these companies are really one firm, is the hon Minister aware that in the past two and a half years no new small entrepreneur was helped and in addition to that, small entrepreneurs who served this Province for 40 years were totally eliminated by this one giant firm?

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, I have done everything to be fair.  It could have been that some small companies did not feature in the tenders, but all we know is that we are trying to give them as far as specifications were concerned.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.  Good.  That is very good.  We are at the end of the oral questions at present.

QUESTION NO 6

MR A RAJBANSI:  Asks the Minister of Education and Culture:

Arising from the reply to a question posed recently (reply dated 21 January 1997) relating to retrospective overtime and/or merit payment.

1.	What number of persons in each amount category and what sum was paid out where the lump sum was greater than R1 000,00?

2.	If the amount of R11,2m was not provided for in the Department Budget, from which line item budget was this paid, and which financial officer so authorised it?

3.	Whether he is fully convinced that this matter is financially and legally above board and whether the agreements reached were to the benefit of the Province?

4.	Whether he will make a full explanatory statement giving his views on the matter?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

WRITTEN REPLY:

1.	(i)	Payment of Retrospective Merit Awards:

		The total of 1 746 retrospective merit awards were made over a three year period totalling an amount of R3 140 387,48.  The breakdown of each year is:

		1993	-	485 employees	R  857 203,90
		1994	-	597 employees	R1 052 453,22
		1995	-	664 employees	R1 229 199,36

		Each payment would have exceeded R1 000,00.
		
		SEE ANNEXURE "A"

	(ii)	Payment of Retrospective Overtime:

		The details requested are reflected on the attached schedule (ANNEXURE "B").  Each payment would once again have exceeded R1 000,00.

2.	Funds were originally provided on the Department's budget to cater for anticipated overtime needs.  Early in the financial year it was established that additional funds would be required to pay the retrospective overtime claims of "Security" Personnel.  The Departments projections, against this item on the budget, were subsequently increased to accommodate and reflect the shortfall.

3.	The relevant details, in this regard, were furnished to Mr Burrows in the Department's response to his original list of questions (Question 2 of that communique).  It would appear that the matter was legally and financially above board.

4.	It must be remembered that the KZNDEC has inherited historical assets and liabilities of the former departments.  Certain decisions may have been taken to the advantage of a particular department in the past, but common policies will now operate.




ANNEXURE "B"
RESTOSPECTIVE OVERTIME
RANK
TOTAL PER RANK
AMOUNT
GROUNDSMAN I
13
R  696 934,42
CLEANER I
12
R  371 027,68
SECURITY GUARD GRADE I
113
R4 931 750,30
HOUSEFATHER
1
R   39 645,03
PRINCIPAL SECURITY OFFICER
1
R   11 334,22
SENIOR SECURITY OFFICER
4
R   61 369,60
SECURITY OFFICER GRADE III
10
R  154 454,02
SECURITY GUARD GRADE II
88
R1 905 279,60
GROUNDSMAN II
6
R  250 714,32
GENERAL WORKER I
3
R   53 794,64



GRANT TOTAL
251
R8 476 303,70


QUESTION NO 7

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)	Whether any member of any council of any transitional local authority in KwaZulu-Natal was, as at 31 October 1996, indebted to the transitional authority concerned in respect of any assessment rates, rent, service charges or any other nominees for a period longer than three months?  If so:

	(i)	Who were the councillors concerned?

	(ii)	From which council were the respective councillors?

	(iii)	What was the amount of indebtedness in respect of each councillor?

	(iv)	Which political parties, if any, nominated each of the councillors concerned for election.

(b)	(i)	What, if any, are the legal consequences for continued membership of a council if a councillor is indebted to a transitional authority in respect of assessment rates, rent, service charges or any other monies for a period longer than three months?

	(ii)	What, if any, are the procedures which need to be taken to effect the said consequences?

	(iii)	Have these procedures been followed in respect of any of the councillors referred to in (a)?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):

WRITTEN REPLY:

(a)	The procedure for the nomination and/or disqualification of councillors is the responsibility of the Chief Executive Officer of the respective local council.  In terms of Section 10I of the Local Government Transition Act, 1993 (Act No. 209 of 1993), the Minister is empowered to obtain any information if, and when, needed.  The information sought in your letter has been requested from all municipalities but it is not anticipated that the results will be available before the end of March 1997.

(b)	(i)	Regulations 82 and 83 of the Local Government Election Regulations provide that a councillor ceases to hold office when he or she ceases to hold the qualifications required for nomination or election.  Such qualifications include the indebtedness by a Councillor to a local council in respect of assessment rates, rent, service charges, or any other monies.

	(ii)	Regulation 82(a) provides that a councillor elected according to a party list who ceases to hold the qualifications required for nomination or election shall be replaced by the person whose name is on top of the list of party candidates.

		Regulation 83 provides that a by-election shall be held when councillor representing a ward or transitional metropolitan substructure ceases to hold the qualifications required for nomination or election.

	(iii)	Please refer to (a).

QUESTION NO 8

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Minister of Safety and Security:

1.	What is the present complement of serving SAPS personnel in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, numbers by region and rank?

2.	What are the numbers of vacant posts in the SAPS in KwaZulu-Natal listed by region and rank?

3.	Is there a freeze on Police recruitment and/or appointment - if so, for what reason?

4.	Whether he will make a statement on this matter?

DR F T MDLALOSE: (Minister of Safety and Security):

WRITTEN REPLY:

1 and 2


3.	I confirm that there is a National Cabinet Moratorium on recruitment for the SAPS,  The National Minister of Safety and Security will be able to submit a reason for this Moratorium.

QUESTION NO 9

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Public Works:

Whether any decision has been taken to call for tenders or to proceed with construction of new government buildings at Ulundi: if so, is this budgeted in the approved provincial budget?

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):

WRITTEN REPLY:

1.	The Provincial Government is currently addressing the issue of specific accommodation needs including Ulundi.  Budgeting provision for accommodation needs have been made for the 1997/98 financial year.

2.	It is anticipated that a media statement in this regard could be made within the next two weeks.

QUESTION NO 10

MR A RAJBANSI:  Asks the Minister of Finance:

Is the hon Minister of Finance aware of the fact that his predecessor gave an undertaking in the Legislature, when the KwaZulu-Natal Tender Bill was being debated, that he would formulate a policy in respect of affirmative action in tendering?  Has the Minister of Finance determined such a policy?  If not, is the present Minister considering such a policy?

DR B S NGUBANE: (Minister of Finance, Agriculture, Auxiliary Affairs, Racing, Wagering):

WRITTEN REPLY:

In collaboration with the KwaZulu-Natal Tender Board, the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism and other interested parties from the private sector, my predecessor, Minister S J Mhlungu, did initiate steps for the eventual formulation of an "affirmative action" tendering policy.  The "10-Point Plan", as devised by the Central Government's Minister of Public Works and its Minister of Finance in conjunction with the State Tender Board was adapted and adopted by the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration.  Discussions between, in particular, representatives of SMME's and the Procurement Administration component of my Department have been ongoing.  These have resulted in "workshops" being conducted at which both the previously disadvantaged sectors as well as the Provincial Departments are being informed of developments regarding methods being used to allow a greater share of Provincial contracts going to previously disadvantaged sectors.

The initiatives regarding "affirmative action" in the tendering process started by the efforts of Minister Mhlungu were continued with and further enhanced by me when I took over the portfolio of Finance.  In addition to all that has been done and to all which is still being done, I also appointed a firm of outside consultants - a "Task Team" - whose primary function was to investigate ways and means of furthering the policy.  The report by this "Task Team" is in the final stages.

However, a word of caution must now be expressed.  While, with the provisions of the Interim Constitution, Provinces had a great deal of autonomy as far as procurement administration was concerned, with the implementation of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act 108 of 1996) on 4 February 1996, this autonomy has been eroded.  Although subsection (2) of Section 217 of the above-mentioned Act allows for "..... categories of preference in the allocation of contracts and the protection or advancement of persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination", subsection (3) of the same Section states: "National legislation must prescribe a framework within which the policy referred to in subsection (2) may be implemented".

Thus, what I, my Department, the KwaZulu-Natal Tender Board and others have already done - and are still busy doing - in this regard, will still have to be measured against the "framework" to be prescribed by National legislation.  To my knowledge, such "National legislation" (to prescribe the framework) has, to date, not yet been passed.


QUESTION NO 11

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Minister of Education and Culture:

1.	What number of:

	(a)	New schools
	(b)	Classrooms

	were erected in 1996?

2.	What costs were incurred in the erection of the above?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

WRITTEN REPLY:

1.	(a)	19 new schools plus Gamalakhe College of Education.

	(b)	419 (this includes ablution, administration blocks, libraries, laboratories, Home Economics and Needlework rooms)

2.	The cost was R165 929 284,00.

QUESTION NO 12

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Minister of Education and Culture:

What sums of money were paid to/allowed to the local authorities of Pietermaritzburg and Durban for Library and Museum services for the financial years 1995/96 and 1996/97.






DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

DURBAN - 1995/96	PIETERMARITZBURG 96/97
R22 200	R22 200

	MUSEUM

DURBAN - 1996/97	PIETERMARITZBURG 96/97
R19 931,30	R19 931,30

	LIBRARY


	ALLOCATED
	PAID
DURBAN - 1995/97

(Local Authority Subsidy)
DML (Umlazi furniture and books)
Buildings of Inanda


2 750 000
460 000


2 750 000
460 000
3 186 263
PIETERMARITZBURG
(1995/96)

(Local Authority Subsidy)



1 241 000



1 241 000
DURBAN - 1995/97

(Local Authority Subsidy)
Building of Inanda
Building of Claremont
KwaMashu (Books)


2 220 000
2 824 517
2 710 400


2 220 000
182 699 166
121 977 504
200 000
PIETERMARITZBURG
(1995/96)

(Local Authority Subsidy)
Ashdown (New Library)
Imbali (new Library)



1 092 080
680 000



819 060


QUESTION NO 13

MR R REDINGER:  Asks the Minister of Health:

1.	Is it true that the Department of Health until very recently was making selective use of 8 or 9 so-called private ambulance companies in the Province?

2.	Is it true that these contracts may well have expired 2 - 3 years ago?

3.	Had standard procedures been ignored?

4.	How were the accounts submitted to the Department, audited or verified before payment was made?

5.	Is it true that some R7m is involved?

6.	If the above is true, how does the Minister justify the continuation of a corrupt practice?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):

WRITTEN REPLY:

1.	No, it is not true.

	There are 6 companies, viz. Bhekanani Ambulance Service, KwaMsane Ambulance Service, KwaNatal Ambulance Services, Messrs B S Mthembu, Tongaat Ambulance Services and St John's Ambulance.

2.	Yes, excluding one (KwaNatal Ambulance Service) contract expired 10 October 1996.

	The hospitals that fell under the control of the ex-KwaZulu Government arranged contracts with these companies.  When these contracts expired, it was decided by the then Management not to renew these contracts, but rather to utilise the services offered in the areas "to best advantage".

	This pertained until September 1996 when a private forensic auditor, Messrs Price Waterhouse, were appointed to investigate the provision of ambulance services to the rural hospitals.  The company's first interim report has been received and the second report is due on 28 February 1997.

	At a meeting with the Superintendent-General, it was agreed to extend these "to best advantage" arrangements until all companies have been advised that their agreement expires at 17:00 on 31 January 1997.  Each Company was advised in writing of this decision.  Due to the time it took to get authorisation of the contract documents, this date had to be extended to 31 March 1997 on the advice of the State Attorney.  Each company was again advised of this in writing.

	New contracts by asking for quotations/tenders are being arranged from 1 April 1997.

3.	At amalgamation of the Departments of Health, this situation was already pertaining, and steps are now being taken to rectify the situation.

4.	A claim is submitted per patient attached to a summary listing all patients.  Only the arithmetic correctness of the claims is checked and corrected if in error.

5.	The total amount spent on private ambulances to date this year is R4 224 346,00 (figure supplied by Ambulance and Emergency Medical Services on 17 February 1997).

	At present the forensic auditors have only investigated one company, viz. Messrs KwaMsane Ambulance Services, who have already repaid approximately R1m overpaid.  Any further amounts are not known at this stage.

6.	The unfortunate part of this investigation was the time it takes to get the new contracts in place and working.  As a serious problem would arise if the service was stopped without another in place to transport patients, it was felt that it was better to permit the existing service to continue.  As a control measure all institutions were circularised and instructed to pay particular attention to the completion of the claim forms and supporting documents.  It is hoped that by 1 April 1997 the new contracts will be up and running.

QUESTION NO 14

MRS C E GALEA:  Asks the Minister of Welfare and Pensions:

1.	That due to the lack of prompt attention and the computer being "off line", many pension problems are building up.

2.	How many applications and other pensions' queries per region are still outstanding from 1996?

3.	Are the staff handling the queries fully trained?

4.	Are all staff positions filled?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions):

WRITTEN REPLY:

1.	Yes, severe pension problems are being experienced with regard to the availability of the computer system to capture applications for social assistance.  These were due to the fact that the amalgamation of the data between systems was still taking place and there have been some problems on the mainframe because of power failures at both the mainframe and the site where the programmers are situated.  There has been a lack of productivity when the computers were "down" and this has been severe at times e.g. 24 February to 28 February (5 days).  In addition, when access to the mainframe was possible, delayed response times had further exacerbated the growing backlog.

	All of the problems with regard to the down time and unavailability of the mainframe have been raised with the National Department of Welfare (who were appointed by the Commission for Administration (Pretoria) to monitor the amalgamation of pension systems).  They have in turn had several meetings with the Bureau Nucleus staff to resolve these problems.

	It should however, be mentioned that:

	(a)	Although all the amalgamations related to the Province of KwaZulu-Natal are now complete, the initial delays were due to problems caused by the amalgamation of former Welfare Departments since 1994.  Firstly, Own Affairs amalgamating with NPA and secondly, NPA amalgamating with KwaZulu Government.

	(b)	Since the last problem that lasted a whole week (24 February to 28 February 1997) during which the mainframe could not be accessed, the system has been stable and except for low response time, no further measure problems relating to the accessibility of the mainframe have been experienced.

		To avoid loss of time and productivity when the mainframe is "off line", my Department, through its Pietermaritzburg Region, is investigating the possibility to introduce a facility whereby decentralised "off line" capturing can be done in the Regional office and then, when the mainframe is "on line" again, the captured information will be loaded onto the mainframe data base.  If this is feasible and working, then this will be introduced to the Durban and Ulundi Regions.

		On the whole, it is contended that if this Province could have captured data on its own mainframe, the situation would have been "saved".  Data could then be transmitted to the central base.  In order to pursue this idea and to resolve a number of teething problems, the staff from the Bureau Nucleus and National Department of Welfare (Principal of the new Transversal system) have been invited to attend a meeting where all these problems will be discussed.  A document will thereafter be drawn up and submitted to Cabinet.

2.	The backlog statistics as at 27 February 1997, for the Province are as follows:


	NEW APPLICATIONS
	REVIEWS/
	PENSION QUERIES
ULUNDI
9 000 (a)




DURBAN
3 800    
11 500



PIETERMARITZBURG
14 222    
6 984

	N.B.	(a)	This figure includes new applications, reviews, claims for funeral expenses etc., statistics on the format as requested are being worked out.

3.	Yes, the Staff dealing with the applications and queries are fully trained.  Ongoing in-service training for all Staff is seen as a priority, and therefore receives continual attention.

4.	In the Ulundi and Pietermaritzburg Regions, a number of posts have been advertised for filling.  In the Durban Regions, most Staff positions are filled.  Posts vacated as a result of the severance package are filled as soon as possible where these are not abolished.

QUESTION NO 15

MRS C E GALEA:  Asks the Minister of Education and Culture:

1.	When will the Gamalakhe College be open?

2.	How many students have applied to be registered?

3.	Will the Department consider building more classrooms so as to increase the student intake?


DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

WRITTEN REPLY:

1.	Date commencement of classes: 26 February 1997 for the Diploma in Education (Secondary).

2.	The number of applicants was 4 785 and 200 students were admitted.

3.	Possible expansion is not being considered.  Status of contract with L T A will end on 09 March 1997.

QUESTION NO 16

MRS C E GALEA:  Asks the Minister of Welfare and Pensions:

1.	Does the Minister attend the Minmec meetings relating to his ministry?

2.	Are the matters discussed reported to the Portfolio Committee?

3.	If so, by whom?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions):

WRITTEN REPLY:

1.	Yes.

2.	Yes.

3.	The Director General.







QUESTION NO 17

MRS C E GALEA:  Asks the Minister of Safety and Security:

1.	Does the Minister attend the Minmec meetings relating to his ministry?

2.	Are the matters discussed reported back to the Portfolio Committee?

DR F T MDLALOSE: (Minister of Safety and Security):

WRITTEN REPLY: (ALSO GIVEN VERBALLY ON 20 FEBRUARY 1997)

1.	The Minister does attend meetings of the ECC whenever his schedule allows it.

2.	Matters discussed at the ECC are mostly of national concern as the SAPS is a National Department i.e. National Crime Prevention Strategy.  In this instance my representative at the Portfolio Committee has kept the Committee informed as to developments in this regard.  This also applies to Community Policing.  It should be noted that the Portfolio Committee may refer matters that should be discusses by the MEC at national level to him.

QUESTION NO 18

MR V J MCHUNU:  Asks the Minister of Education and Culture:

Urban pupils are culprits in examination paper leakage.  The twelve-hour examination paper delivery which is anticipated by the Department of Education will not affect urban pupils negatively, rural pupils will be affected negatively.  What measures will the Department take to ensure that papers reach schools in time, even during rainy days when roads become unpassable?





DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

WRITTEN REPLY:

The Province will distribute question papers to the eight Regions.  The distribution to urban and rural schools is the responsibility of each of the Regions.

Generally, Regions have made contingency plans to make sure that schools in all areas, including rural areas, receive their papers on time.  Contact with the police and defence force have been made to deal with unusual circumstances such as heavy rainfall.

QUESTION NO 19

MR V J MCHUNU:  Asks the Minister of Welfare and Pensions:

Pensioners are exposed to unbearable heat and rain, waiting for hours for their money.  To spare the elderly from this agony, when will Welfare and Pensions Ministry implement the idea of transferring monies to the banks and Post Offices?  Robberies that take place at payment points or on the way to or from payment points would also be eliminated.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions):

WRITTEN REPLY:

A scheme to improve conditions at paypoints is under way.  Progress is hampered by unavailability of funds.  There are, however, many pensioners who have their pensions payable at Post Offices or paid into their building society or bank accounts.  The delay in implementing these facilities in certain parts of the Province has been due to the delay in completing the amalgamation of the pension systems.  The new system has the required facility.  The contract with the Post Office now includes all pensioners.  Pensioners who require all these facilities may now approach their District offices for assistance.  It must be kept in mind that in a number of remote and rural area, no such Bank of Post Office facilities are available or can be accessed without undue hardship to the pensioners.



QUESTION NO 20

MR V J MCHUNU:  Asks the Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs:

According to Minister Hanekom, land in traditional areas will go to the people.  This means that Ingonyama will forgo the land under his trust.  AmaKhosi too will follow suit.  What is the reaction of the Minister of Traditional Affairs as far as this issue is concerned?

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs):

WRITTEN REPLY:

Land in the traditional authority areas is de facto in possession of the communities of those areas.  Legally it is owned by the Ingonyama Trust.  The Trust may not deal with the land without the written consent of the Tribal Authority.

Land reform measures by Minister Hanekom will only apply after consultation with the Ingonyama Trust.  During those consultations every effort will be made to protect traditional practices.

Any moves to change commercial land tenure in a manner which undermines traditional leadership will be firmly resisted.  Every effort will in fact be made to vest full legal ownership in the lawful Tribal Administrator via title deeds to be conveyed to them by the Ingonyama Trust.

QUESTION NO 21

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Asks the Minister of Transport:

What amount was collected in toll fees at each toll plaza in KwaZulu-Natal in 1996?






MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):

WRITTEN REPLY:

Marianhill
Tongaat
Mvoti
Oribi
Mtunzini
R154 443 051
R10 848 212
R14 627 873
R5 894 703
R5 346 070

QUESTION NO 22

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Asks the Minister of Education and Culture:

What percentage of the pupils who wrote matric in 1996 in KwaZulu-Natal passed?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

WRITTEN REPLY:

The percentage pass of pupils who wrote matric in 1996 in KwaZulu-Natal is 63%.

QUESTION NO 23

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Asks the Minister of Economic Affairs:

1.	Does your Department offer any incentives to industrialists to establish or expand industrial undertakings in KwaZulu-Natal?

2.	If so, what are they?

3.	If not, why not?

DR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):

WRITTEN REPLY:

1.	Yes and No.

2.	There are quite a number of incentive schemes that have been put in place for industrial development.  However, these are national programmes, co-ordinated by the DTI.  The important ones are mentioned briefly below:

	Medium-Term Loan Financing

	The objective of this scheme is to encourage establishment and expansion of existing industries at interest based on medium-term capital market rates.  This scheme is available to all independent industrialists or groups with assets not exceeding R120m.

	Standard Leased Factory Building Scheme

	The objective of the scheme is to make it possible for the industrialists to utilise capital for more productive purposes and to increase their borrowing powers and cash flow.  The IDC, as the institution responsible for this scheme, makes general purpose factory building available for lease.

	Venture Capital Scheme

	This scheme is available to small and medium sized industrialists.  The objective is to stimulate development of various products or the establishment of new ventures for products with good growth potential.

	Support Programme for Industrial Innovation (SPII)

	The SPII is designed to promote technology development in manufacturing industries in South Africa through support for innovation of competitive products and/processes.  It is available to all private sector enterprises in the manufacturing industry that submit a meritorious project proposal and which have the ability to develop and commercialise the product.  Assistance takes the form of a grant of 50% of the actual direct cost incurred in the pre-competitive development activity, reaching a maximum grant of R1m per project.



	Tax Holiday

	The tax holidays is the major incentive scheme for promoting industrial development and foreign direct investment.  The objective of this scheme is to encourage investment in manufacturing, assist local manufacturers in improving their international competitiveness and facilitate a higher degree of labour absorption.  The scheme consists of two elements and industrialists receive two years tax holiday for each of these components they comply with.  These components are spatial location, qualifying industries and the ratio of human resource remuneration to value-added.  It also includes a foreign investment location grant for investors bringing in new industrial equipment.  It is available to local and foreign firms whose investment in plant and machinery exceeds R3m.

The spatial component is determined, having regard to the:

(	level of specialisation and advantage in manufacturing in existence in a location; and

	-	strengthening of secondary cities;
	-	reinforcement of key urban nodes along development corridors that qualifies as a spatial development initiative;
	-	consolidation of emerging agglomeration areas where a sufficient supply of appropriate infrastructure is available as a result of the restructuring of existing manufacturing activities.

The qualifying magisterial districts in KwaZulu-Natal are:

(	Pietermaritzburg
(	Lower Umfolozi
(	Isithebe
(	Inanda
(	Ntuzuma
(	Newcastle
(	Mpumalanga
(	Klip River



The industries which qualify for the scheme are:

(	Fruit and Vegetables
(	Textiles and clothing
(	Wood products, pulp and paper
(	Paints and varnishes
(	Pharmaceutical, medical and botanical products
(	Other chemical products
(	Tyres and tubes
(	Rubber and plastic products
(	Ceramics and other non-metallic mineral products
(	Metal products
(	Machinery and electronic equipment
(	Motor vehicles and equipment
(	Other transport equipment
(	Jewellery and other manufacturing


	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FIRST SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	TUESDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:06 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  The first announcement is to set everybody at ease. You see that I have not got my gown.  I am sure that that raises questions in the minds of many people.  Let your hearts and minds not be troubled.  It just so happens that the gown did not arrive in time for the opening, so do not have any ideas.  I see Roger Burrows looking askance and getting worried.

MR R M BURROWS:  I thought it was at the dry cleaners, Mr Speaker.   [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  So that is the position.  Now you have the Order Paper, but I thought I will explain the whole procedure.  The Judge will now come in after the prayer, led by the Sergeant-at-Arms, and he will take his seat.  As he comes in we will all stand until he takes his seat, then we will sit down.  Then those who want to take the oath will come forward in groups of five.  The administrative staff will take care of that.  I am informed that to save time, the people will take the oath and then sign the papers.  The Judge will sign those at his chambers later on.  So do not be disturbed and worried about that.  We are looking after that very well.

Then I will ask Mr Tarr to move this motion, that is 2.2.  He will read it out and I will put it to the House.  That should take a very short time.  Thereafter, that is after the swearing in, the four members who will be called upon to come forward will also be sworn in.  His Lordship, the Judge has requested to leave after this because he has other commitments.

In fact we are lucky to have him here because he has had to postpone a judgment in court for the sake of this occasion.  I think we understand it clearly.

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is my view, with respect, that the only person hon members stand up for in this House is for the Speaker.  This is not a court of law.  So I will not stand up when the Judge comes in because I only respect you.

THE SPEAKER:  In that event, I will not like any embarrassment to the Judge please.  I will readily comply and I will stand up.  It is no problem to me.  You may therefore sit down.  For the sake of uniformity I request all members to sit down when the Judge comes in.  I will stand up, show him his place and carry on.  That I hope will settle everything.  There is no question of embarrassment.  Nobody will feel hurt one way or the other.  I do hope I have got your acceptance on this situation.  

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  It is totally uncontentious, Mr Speaker, I promise you.  The list of the order in which members will be sworn in is not on our desks.  It would be very useful if members can get themselves ready.  I wonder whether the staff could enquire whether we could get the list distributed quickly please.

THE SPEAKER:  I left that to my staff.  That will be attended to.  I will give permission to my secretary to let everybody be at ease about that.  Please, normally we do not ask the secretary to address the House but for the sake of convenience and the sake of orderliness may I ask the secretary to inform the House what the position is.

THE SECRETARY:  Mr Speaker, what we will do when the turn of the members come I will announce the members who will come forward.  They will come forward and then take the oath and sign their papers, bring the papers to me because the Judge will sign later.

That is the position.  Then the members will return to their seats and another group will come forward.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  I take it then all our minds are now ad idem of what is going to happen.  Thank you very much.  It is now my pleasure to call upon the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the hon Justice Howard into the chamber.  Everybody sits down, I will stand up.  His Lordship, the hon Justice Howard.

THE JUDGE PRESIDENT OF THE NATAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION OF THE HIGH COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA MR JUSTICE J A HOWARD TOOK THE CHAIR.  

THE SPEAKER:  At this point in time I will call upon the Chief Whip to read the motion in terms of 2.2.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I believe that the swearing in process for the existing members should be completed first.

THE SPEAKER:  Completed first.  Well, thank you very much for that, Mr Chief Whip.  The members will come forward and be sworn in after their names are called.  The secretary shall read the names of the people to come forward in groups of five.  Mr Secretary, the problem now is to have those people called.  You have a list of them and nobody else has, unfortunately.  Who are the first to come forward?

	MINISTER J G ZUMA
	MINISTER J S NDEBELE
	MINISTER Z L MKHIZE
	DEPUTY SPEAKER T W MCHUNU 
	INKOSI Z M MLABA
	ADV D P A SCHUTTE
	MR G S BARTLETT
	MR S V NAICKER
	MR V A VOLKER 
	MR R E REDINGER
	MRS C M CRONJE
	MISS F M NAHARA
	MR N V E NGIDI
	MR T S MOHLOMI 
	MR B H CELE 

are called upon in groups to come forward to take the Oath.

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  I will read out the form of the oath and if you will respond.  Those of you who are going to swear an oath, simply say: I do, so help me God.  Those who are going to solemnly affirm simply say: I do.

	Do you swear or solemnly affirm to be faithful to the Republic of South Africa and solemnly promise to perform your functions as a member of the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal to the best of your ability.

THE HON MEMBERS ARE DULY SWORN IN AND REQUESTED TO SIGN THE NECESSARY PAPERS.    

THE SPEAKER:  It has now come to my notice that the oath that is being administered at the present moment is not in terms of the Constitution.  It is probably my staff's error in not quoting it verbatim as it is in the Constitution.  I am in your hands now as to how to remedy this position.  I really did not want to keep his Lordship Justice Howard here for a long time.  He has other obligations.  In fact the court is waiting for him.  I promised that within a very short space of time everything will be over.  I am embarrassed that in fact such a situation has arisen.  I suppose in that event would it not be better to carry out the procedure at the present moment and then the proper oath to be provided and signed before the President.  Would there be anything amiss in that?  May I hear from the legal pundits what must happen now.  Apparently irregular papers were signed.  Could the real oath which is in the Constitution be signed later on.  I do not know, I am entirely in your hands.  Yes, Mr Jeffery.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, the issue that was omitted from the oath was swearing allegiance to the Constitution.  It is the phrase, "Respect and uphold the Constitution and all other laws of the Republic", and that is quite an important phrase, swearing allegiance to the Constitution and it is also in terms of the Schedule 2 of the Constitution.  So my concern is that I would feel personally that the member should retake the oath.

HON MEMBERS:  Agreed.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, if your Lordship will accept that submission.  I suppose when your Lordship reads the oath it will be in the correct format as it is and the papers can be corrected later on.  That will also to those that were just sworn in.  I take it the House accepts that?

AGREED

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Your Lordship.

THE FOLLOWING HON MEMBERS ARE DULY SWORN IN OR SOLEMNLY AFFIRMED AFTER REPLYING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION BY MR JUSTICE HOWARD:

MR JUSTICE HOWARD: 

	Do you swear or solemnly affirm that you will be faithful to the Republic of South Africa and will obey, respect and uphold the Constitution and all other law of the Republic and do you solemnly promise to perform your functions as a member of the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal to the best of your ability.

	MINISTER J G ZUMA
	MINISTER J S NDEBELE
	MINISTER Z L MKHIZE
	DEPUTY SPEAKER T W MCHUNU
	INKOSI Z M MLABA
	ADVOCATE D P A SCHUTTE
	MR G S BARTLETT
	MR S V NAICKER
	MR V A VOLKER
	MR R E REDINGER
	MRS C M CRONJE
	MISS F M NAHARA
	MR N V E NGIDI
	MR T S MOHLOMI
	MR B H CELE
	MR D H MAKHAYE
	DR M O SUTCLIFFE
	MR F DLAMINI
	MISS M N BUTHELEZI
	MR J H JEFFERY
	MR Y S BHAMJEE
	MRS H M BLOS
	MR M A CELE
	DR A N LUTHULI	
	MR R M BURROWS
	MR W U NEL
	MR A RAJBANSI
	MR J D MKHWANAZI
	MR I C MEER
	MR M MABUYAKHULU
	MR S N MTETWA
	MR B G NKABINDE
	MR V C XABA
	MR B V EDWARDS
	MRS C E GALEA
	MR G HAYGARTH
	MR V J MCHUNU

THE SECRETARY:  The next group.  Mr V C Xaba, Mr M I Madondo, J E Sosibo, S N Mtetwa.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think the Secretary has made a mistake.  Some of the names that he has just read out are not existing members of the Legislature and should be dealt with either in terms of the resolution appointing permanent delegates or in terms of the swearing in of new members.  Perhaps the secretary could call on the remaining members who have not been sworn in to clarify the issue to come forward.

THE SPEAKER:  Thanks for pointing that out.  I am sure my staff should have seen to that and corrected that issue.  That will be attended to.  Now we have got one person, I do not know what my Secretary has done.  It is a rather embarrassing situation which I am witnessing now.

I will therefore at this point in time call upon the Chief Whip to move a motion in terms of Order Paper 2.2.  The hon Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I move the resolution as it stands in item 2.2.1 in the Order Paper.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I have a difficulty in supporting the six names.  The Constitution makes it obligatory for this House to endorse the names suggested by the parties.  I want to place on record, and this is nothing personal against name number 6, my only reason I want to record my reservation is this person does not reside in the Province.  I believe whoever we are sending to represent and fight for our Province must be a person from this Province.  I know that the DP is bound by the Constitution but I will support this with my reservation on name number 6.  Nothing personal.  They also have their instructions from their National Council to include this person.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, from the ANC side, we have pleasure in supporting the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I put the motion to the House.

		APPOINTMENT OF PERMANENT DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

		It is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, in accordance with section 61(2)(b) of the Constitution, on this the 4th day of February 1997, that:-

		1.	Mr G B Bhengu
		2.	Rev M K Zondi
		3.	Adv C H Pienaar
		4.	Dr S Cwele
		5.	Rev M Henry
		6.	Mr E K Moorcroft 

		be and are hereby appointed as permanent delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces (NCOP).

THIS MOTION AS PROPOSED BY MR M A TARR IS AGREED TO.

THE SPEAKER:  The motion is accepted.  Yes?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the members mentioned in the motion, if they are present, would now be entitled to sit in the House if they so wished.  Mr Speaker, there are also new members, ex-Senators waiting outside to be escorted in to swear the oath and I request permission for myself and the Chief Whip from the ANC to escort them in.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I take it the other people will take their places in terms of the new dispensation and I accordingly call upon the Chief Whips to bring into the House those new members.  It is now my pleasure to call upon the four new members from the Senate to come forward and be sworn in by his Lordship Justice Howard.  The ANC as well as the IFP are bringing in the new members.  There are four of them to be sworn in by his Lordship the Judge.  Your Lordship?



THE FOLLOWING HON MEMBERS ARE DULY SWORN IN OR SOLEMNLY AFFIRMED AFTER REPLYING IN THE AFFIRMATIVE TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION BY MR JUSTICE HOWARD.

MR JUSTICE HOWARD: 

	Do you swear or solemnly affirm that you will be faithful to the Republic of South Africa and will obey, respect and uphold the Constitution and all other law of the Republic; and do you solemnly promise to perform your functions as a member of the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal to the best of your ability.  
	
	MR P POWELL
	MRS A MCHUNU
	ADV M I MADONDO
	MR E S MCHUNU
	
THE SPEAKER:  Those are the last to be sworn in by his Lordship.  May I take this opportunity to thank you very much for having borne patience with us, with all the administrative muddles.  He has performed his duties to the satisfaction of this Assembly and for that I want to convey my thanks to him for his patience and his capability in the work done.  I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort his Lordship out of the Chamber and we will continue with our daily proceedings.  Your Lordship.

MR JUSTICE HOWARD LEAVES THE CHAMBER

THE SPEAKER:  We now proceed in terms of the Order Paper.  We are on 2.2.3.  The Chief Whip.

2.2.3	DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

		In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the African National Congress (ANC) and Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP), on this, the 4th day of February 1997, that:-

		1.	Dr F T Mdlalose
		2.	Mr J G Zuma
		3.	Dr B S Ngubane
		4.	Mr J H Jeffery

		be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates on the 6th and 7th February for the purpose of the first sitting of the NCOP and the opening of Parliament of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces.

THE RESOLUTION AS PROPOSED BY MR M A TARR IS AGREED TO.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, there are a series of resolutions on the Order Paper which all relate to the implementation of the NCOP.  They are all agreed measures, Mr Speaker, and in order to save time I believe they could all be put together if the House is agreeable.

THE SPEAKER:  I do not think there is any objection to that.  All resolutions read once, put into one.  Yes, Mr Roger Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  I am sorry to take a point.

THE SPEAKER:  I would expect you to do so, yes.

MR R M BURROWS:  2.2.4 has two names missing.  Presumably the Chief Whip will give us those names before he moves a resolution otherwise we give him a blank cheque.  Which we would never do obviously.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much for that Mr Roger Burrows.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would formally like to move resolution 2.2.3.  The blank names Mr Burrows mentions in resolution 2.2.4, the names to be included there are Mrs F Gasa and myself, Mr M Tarr.  With that addition I formally move resolution 2.2.4.  I then move resolution 2.2.5 and also resolution 2.2.6.




2.2.4	DESIGNATION OF SPECIAL DELEGATES TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
		
		In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, it is hereby resolved by this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the Leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and African National Congress (ANC), on this, the 4th day of February 1997, that:-

		1.	Mr N V E Ngidi
		2.	Mrs C M Cronje
		3.	Mrs F X Gasa
		4.	Mr M A Tarr

		be and are hereby designated as Special Delegates on the 10/11/12 February for the purpose of the sitting of the various structures of the NCOP and other related matters of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces.

THE RESOLUTION AS PROPOSED BY MR M A TARR IS AGREED TO.

2.2.5	CONFERRING AUTHORITY TO VOTE ON THE KWAZULU-NATAL DELEGATION TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

		The KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature resolves to confer authority on the delegation to the National Council of Provinces as follows:

		(a)	in the event of the election of the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, to nominate and vote for Mr Patrick Lekota;

		(b)	when the deputy chairperson of the National Council of Provinces is elected, to nominate/vote for Mr B Ngcuka; 

		(c)	when the rotating deputy chairperson of the National Council of Provinces is elected, to nominate/vote for the Premier of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal;

		(d)	to vote for the adoption of the Preliminary Rules of the National Council of Provinces;

		(c)	to mandate the delegation to participate in any other processes necessary for the establishment of National Council of Provinces structures and matters incidental thereto.  In the event that there is no unaminity, it is to be referred back to the Provincial NCOP Committee.


2.2.6	That this House hereby amends the resolution passed by it on 4 December 1996 so as to include the names of the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of Committees on the Parliamentary Executive Board.

THE RESOLUTION AS PROPOSED BY MR M A TARR IS AGREED TO.


THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Chief Whip.  I put all the resolutions as read by the Chief Whip before the House.

The resolutions are accepted unanimously.  We are over 2.2.6.  Thanks for that.  We are now at No 3 in terms of the Order Paper which is Report of the Rules Standing Committee.  The hon Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, that report was completed this morning.  Unfortunately I have just noticed it has not yet been tabled.  With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will see what has happened and perhaps you could move onto item No 4 in the meantime and I will find out where that report is and get it tabled.

THE SPEAKER:  Request granted.  I was not too sure whether Mr Volker had something to say or not.

MR V A VOLKER:  Only under the next item on the agenda.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We move on to the next item.  Now Notices of Bills please if there be any.  Mr Volker?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to give notice of the following motion:

	THIS HOUSE wishes to place on record its thanks and appreciation to Dr F T Mdlalose, Premier of KwaZulu-Natal, for initiating and obtaining the full Cabinet support to a declaration of commitment to the anti-corruption and fraud campaign whereby each Minister reaffirmed his unreserved commitment to the Provisional vision and their undertaking that in order to achieve this they will inter alia pursue all avenues to ensure the effective combatting of corruption and fraud in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and whereby they committed themselves fully to a clean and corruption-free Province.

	THIS HOUSE THEREFORE NOTING that there have been confirmed reports of substantial sums of money that have been offered and paid by role-players in the gaming industry (where illegal operations were about to be closed in terms of legislation approved by this House and which was about to be implemented by the Premier) to political parties and influential political role-players within the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

	THIS HOUSE THEREFORE calls on the Premier to assist in clearing up all suspicions of possible corrupt practices by members of the gaming industry whereby the impression could be created that such substantial donations could serve as an inducement to take a softer line on the proposed closure of illegal casinos by instituting an immediate independent public and transparent investigation into the said offers and payment of substantial funds by the gaming industry.

	THIS HOUSE FURTHER REQUESTS that the findings be reported in full to members of this House within 30 days.

HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi then Mr Meer.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this House believes in good governance and clean administration and requires that the gambling industry be clean and beyond suspicion.

	THEREFORE it expresses concern about the manner in which the preparatory steps are being taken to establish the casino industry in the Province and calls upon the hon Premier to immediately appoint an independent commission of inquiry to investigate inter alia the following:

	1.	The role of Dr Kisten Rajoo in obtaining rights from Inkosi M J Mkhwanazi in his capacity as a tribal authority of Mkhwanazi in Port Durnford to establish a casino in the said area in the same manner in which Sol Kerzner manipulated the homelands as per the attached agreement dated 27 September 1995 that was signed between the Inkosi and Dr K Rajoo MP and the subsequent assurances given by the said Dr K Rajoo to potential investors that a casino licence would be granted at Port Durnford with the manipulation of the macro plan.

	2.	The drafting of the casino legislation of our Province, especially the closure clause that was submitted to the Portfolio Committee on Finance as proposed by Sun International.

	3.	Whether there are outside influences in the drafting of rules relating to casinos in our Province.

	4.	The conduct of politicians as follows:

		(a)	The resignation of the former Minister of Finance;
		(b)	The reason why the Premier took over the gambling portfolio from the Minister of Finance; and
		(c)	Whether the former Minister of Finance had any interest in casinos when he made the rules;
		(d)	The about turn against small casinos by members of this Legislature especially Mr John Aulsebrook who had championed the cause of small casinos and is now behaving like the Minister of Gambling in our Province.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute, Mr Rajbansi.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the hon member is abusing this House again.  He is using an opportunity of moving a motion to make a speech.  He is abusing the privilege of this House, Mr Speaker, and I ask you to rule that he completes his motion or he withdraws it.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Well, the choice is yours, I can see Mr Rajbansi ... 

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, let me say a word ...

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, do you not think I will have your permission to say something after what the Chief Whip has said?  Thank you for giving me that permission.  Now this question of these motions, you know, it has happened several times in this House.  People get up to move a motion and actually they make a speech which is going to be made in any case when the motion comes up for discussion.  May I therefore, in view of the fact that the motion will appear on the Order Paper exactly as it is, request the hon member merely to leave the matter where it is, and then the matter will come up in the motion exactly.  He will therefore not be made to have not said what he wanted to say.  The hon Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I agree with you and I agree with the hon Chief Whip.  All I am doing is placing the terms of reference and they can not be given in summary form.  I have just got the last point.

	The appointment of the Gambling Board, especially the manner in which the eminent Professor Daleep Garach was excluded after being placed on the short list by the Portfolio Committee on Finance.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for that.  Otherwise, as I have said, there should be a warning again.  People should not in moving a motion argue the merits of their own motion.  Put it in any case.  There is an opportunity, the matter will appear on the Order Paper and we have ample time to discuss the matter.  There is no reason in giving a motion and then you argue your case.  Thank you for that.  The next motion.  Oh Mr Meer please.

MR I C MEER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I think on the point that you have just spoken perhaps there is a need briefly to give a written direction to this House.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  Old men think the right way anyway.

MR I C MEER:  Thank you, sir.  At the next sitting day of this House I shall move the following motion:

	Noting the importance of our rich liberation history and welcoming the formation of the Liberation History Foundation to make known our historical past to all.  This House records the important role in Provincial, National and International fields played by this Province's great son Josiah Gumede who with the help and co-operation of the Reverend John L Dube founded the Natal Native Congress in 1901 and the African National Congress in 1912 and who in 1927, 70 years ago in Brussels, Europe, participated in the founding of the league of imperialism and colonial oppression.

	THIS HOUSE appeals to all its members to attend the Liberation History Foundation's function at SASTRI College on Sunday, the 16th day of February 1997 to pay tribute and honour this talented leader in music, journalism, education, business and in our long walk to freedom.

THE SPEAKER:  Just one motion.  I hope the next one will be shorter.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR I C MEER:  Well, sir, it is very relevant and every word of it completely complies with the precedent of all Parliaments where such motions are allowed.  [LAUGHTER]  I hope the Whips will tell us exactly which word should be excluded.

	Noting with deep concern that in the closing years of this man dominated 20th Century the machine is taking over from man.

	FURTHER NOTING that the computer is in the lead to nominate both men and women now in the pending 21st Century of the future and recording the serious computer errors committed by the machine in both the recent matric examination and in paying salaries to non-existing Provincial employees and possible existing recipients of salaries as young as two year olds.  This Provincial Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal, in order to end the machine growing threats to all human beings, male and female, record that is no more correct to say that to err is human and it is correct to say that to err becomes non-human, the computer and when the computer is casting with media help, machine errors and crime of ghost payments to human beings, this House appoints a legal committee to draw legislation to nip the machine threats to man and woman in the bud and draft legislation that would punish and extract the pound of flesh or rather the pound of metal from the computer.  [LAUGHTER]  To prevent the computer crime being carried into the 20th Century without a machine portio being allowed to defend the computer or to raise the defence of mens rea.  These machines are necessary to stop the buck at the computer which whilst absolving man of any errors has continued to bring the very good name of this Legislature into disrepute.

THE SPEAKER:  Will the hon member please complete.  I reckon this could be safely stated when the matter is being discussed in the motion.

MR I C MEER:  I am concluding, sir.

	This matter transcends party affiliation and even gender solidarity.  This Legislature calls for closing of all human ranks to fight the erring criminal machines.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  I do not know whether this House has jurisdiction over criminal machines.  The hon Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, a point of clarification.  Is the hon member suggesting that we should gaol machines?  [LAUGHTER]

MR I C MEER:  Mr Chairman, I am not going to be the prosecutor, the judge and the jury.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Meer.

MR I C MEER:  I am merely here as a member of the Legislature laying the law.  I believe in the impartiality of the judiciary independent of us to try and punish the machines.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  It will first be Mr Rajbansi then Mr Bartlett.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, on this particular motion, I want to ask whether it is valid because would we not have to amend the Constitution in order to get a clause which entrenches machine rights, sir.  [LAUGHTER]

MR I C MEER:  There is an inherent right which is God given that all wrong should be opposed and I rely not only on this Legislature but on the Almighty to end this intrusion of the machines which makes our executive find a scapegoat in the machines.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  I will ask the Minister of Roads, I thought I saw his hand up.  Let us come to an end.  The Premier will be the last one to speak on this.  We are not going to wrangle over this and I will ask the Minister of Roads to say something and then the Premier.  I think we should stop any further discussion.  There is no need for it in fact.  Yes, the hon Minister.  Oh another motion.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I will only be too happy to hear yet another motion, a proper motion and not debates and debates about what is in fact something that should not have even arisen in this House.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi, that should be your chance in view of the Minister of Roads statement.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, sir.  I was waiting for the hon Chief Whip on the other side to jump up when Mr Meer was moving his motion.  I want to say, Mr Speaker, that I wanted to move five motions.  I have condensed them into one.

I do hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of the hon House as follows.  Just one minute, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  He has lost his papers.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR A RAJBANSI:  Somebody has taken my motion.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  This House shall not be held in ransom over somebody forgetting and misplacing his papers.  [LAUGHTER]  The hon member obviously changed his mind.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I will come back.

THE SPEAKER:  I will therefore ask the Minister of Roads please.

MR J S NDEBELE:  (Minister of Transport):  It was a ghost motion.  [LAUGHTER]  Mr Speaker, at the next sitting I shall move as follows:

	NOTING that only those parties, led by the African National Congress, which will constitute the Provincial Government of KwaZulu-Natal after the April 1999 elections, took the oath of office affirming their adherence to the Constitution and laws of the country.
	RESOLVES

	To voice its deep concern at the failure of the IFP to take the oath/affirmation and trust that they will conduct themselves strictly within the Constitution and laws of South Africa.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That motion will be debated.  Thanks for the briefness of the motion.  I am not sure whether the Premier probably had a motion or what.  I am entirely in his hands now.  He is not in the chamber at the present moment otherwise I think that is the close of the Order Paper as it stands.  Nevertheless, I will wait for the hon the Premier.  Yes, Mr Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the report of the Rules Committee has now been tabled.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I would like to move, Mr Speaker, that the report ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I come in on a point of order before you take the next matter.  This document was erroneously taken away.  Can I have your permission to move my motion or place my motion?

THE SPEAKER:  Well, Mr Rajbansi, you do in fact put me on trial because you do lose your papers, you sit down and then you change your mind.  Again you want to stand up and carry on.  I thought you were withdrawing completely.  Now you come up.  But I will not deprive you of that opportunity.  First of all, I will ask that hon member to voice something else because already you have had a chance and some or other thing went wrong.  The hon member please.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Speaker, sir, I hereby give notice that at its next meeting I shall move:

	NOTING THAT:

	1.	The TLC and TMC were created last year to the amalgamation of former white local authorities and administered by KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration.

	2.	The areas formerly under the Administration of KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration are still under the control of the Province and believing that this denies the TLC and TMC the opportunities of fulfilling the objectives of the RDP.

	HEREBY call upon the hon Minister to transfer with immediate effect all land within the jurisdiction of the TLC and the TMC to enable these local authorities to deliver housing opportunities and related developmental projects.

Thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now the Raj.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this House recognises the multicultural nature of our country and our Province and notes with appreciation the fact that in employment of staff at National level the rainbow character is visible.

	IT ALSO NOTES with concern, that in the employment of staff, the members of the Indian community are not recognised, especially in the Department and the office of the Premier.  As the Gambling Department appears to be pure white, as white as milk, there are no Indians as police area commissioners in our Province and there are no Indians in the three person advisors on police matters in the office of the Premier.

	FURTHERMORE it is a sad reflection on this Province that the Premiers and the Governments of Gauteng, Mpumalanga and the North-West provinces can appreciate the talent of the Indian community of our Province and have offered Indians from KwaZulu-Natal top jobs.  

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Again, Mr Rajbansi, again, again, again.  I do not want to repeat myself.  I have not heard what the Chief Whip is going to say.  It is my feeling that what you are now saying is a matter that in fact can be brought to the House in supporting the motion.  That is the feeling I have.  I do not know what the Chief Whip is going to say.  But nevertheless, seeing that I have given opportunity to the Chief Whip, let him say what he is going to say.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, quite clearly that member is making the sort of speech that he would make in speaking to his motion.  It is a very difficult dividing line.  I know it is difficult for you to judge, but I would really appeal that we perhaps need to look at our Rules or have some way of screening motions to prevent members making long speeches in this House, and also to prevent members, you know, making fun of this House by passing irrelevant sort of motions as well.  I would really ask you to request the hon member to put his motion without making a speech.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, I have made my point, save to state that great minds think alike.  I have not met with the Chief Whip but apparently we are saying the same thing, expressing the same concern.  But nevertheless, the floor is yours.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I just want to respond with your permission, to the comments of the hon Chief Whip for the IFP.  I fully agree with him, but in terms of the Constitution he should look at the clause called, "Fair administrative justice" and the reflection is on the hon Chief Whip of the IFP because there were other motions moved in this House today and the hon Chief Whip of the IFP did not jump up like a jack-in-the-box, and I will shorten the remainder of my motion and you could place it in the Order Paper.

	Therefore it be resolved to request the present Premier to assure the Indian community that it also has a place in the sun in our Province.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I want to assure you that in my Department, the Parliamentary Department, we do have Indian people appointed.  That should be a sobering effect on your feelings towards that motion.  The hon Minister of Housing.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, I just wish to move a proper motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Miller.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  In terms of Rule 104(g) I move the following unopposed motion.

	That in all official documentation, speeches and other occasions where reference is made to this hon House the term "Provincial Parliament" be used in place of the term "Provincial Legislature".

I move.

THE SPEAKER:  There you are.  That is a motion.  It will be on the Order Paper tomorrow.  Any further motions please?

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Sir, I believe it is an unopposed motion.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Yes.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, that is a very important point.  Yes, let us hear you.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I do not know on what basis the hon Minister Miller calls it an unopposed motion because he actually jumped the gun, with respect, and assumed that it would be an unopposed motion.  The Constitution which came into effect at midnight last night as well as the interim Constitution refers to a Provincial Legislature.

So therefore if one would refer in any document, official or otherwise, to the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature he would be acting in terms of the Constitution which is the Constitution governing this country.  There may be members of this House who are actually not aware of that and it fills one with some concern but we do have the Constitution, for the information of the hon Minister, it is called the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1996 and some of us swear allegiance and abide by this Constitution.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  The whole matter comes to the point that in fact the motion moved is not an unopposed one.  I rely on my Whip of the ANC to put her in a position.  Therefore that is not, repeat not an unopposed motion but it could go down as a motion for discussion tomorrow.  The hon Minister.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Yes, sir, I have read the Constitution.  I am aware of those things.  I merely move this, we all proudly call ourselves MPPs, we have been for two years and in terms of ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please!

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Dr Sutcliffe please, if you will keep your peace.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, by virtue of the fact that it is thus opposed, which I expected it to be, it means it has now to be debated on the next occasion.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, as I have already said, the matter is no longer an unopposed motion but in fact is a motion like any other and the learned pundits will put us wise who know more about the Constitution.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, just apropos that particular point.  I am not quite sure why we are actually indulging in it since our own Standing Rules that we adopted two years ago indicate that Parliament is defined to mean the Provincial Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal and obviously if our Standing Rules are the Standing Rules of the Provincial Parliament and they were accepted unanimously, I do not understand why we are having this argument.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Actually I do not understand why the hon member should raise this point now because that is a matter to be raised tomorrow when the motion is being discussed.  That is my problem at the present moment.  We are waiting for the Premier to come in if he had anything to say in view of the fact in terms of the Order Paper, the motions have all been given.  There is no further motion and I would like the Chief Whip to say whatever he has to say.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, we still need to deal with item 4 on the Order Paper.

REPORT OF THE RULES STANDING COMMITTEE

THE SPEAKER:  Item 4?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  That is a report of the Rules ...

THE SPEAKER:  Oh the Rules Standing Committee, yes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  That is a Report of the Rules Committee, Mr Speaker.  It has now been tabled.  Every member has a copy.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  No, I do not have it and probably the Chief Whip only has it.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, there is some confusion.  I am not sure, everyone should have a copy by now.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, may I offer assistance.  All the parties are aware of the Rules.  We have reached a complete consensus in the Committee.  If the hon Chief Whip can just read them out, they are very short.  I am prepared to accept them or alternatively we regard it as tabled and read because we have knowledge of those Rules.

THE SPEAKER:  I do have the annexures here.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Provided he sticks to the Rule as far as the brevity of his motion.

THE SPEAKER:  The Chief Whip please.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, these Rules came about because of the introduction of the NCOP.  They are presented here in the form of an annexure to our existing Rules with some consequential amendments on the last page.  All the parties have agreed to them and I will move that we accept them as they are.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I would rather not read them out, Mr Speaker, it is six pages.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  May I enquire from the House.  Have you got these Rules relating to the National Council of Provinces.  Have you all got this?

HON MEMBERS:  Yes.

THE SPEAKER:  That is what we are talking about.  Dr Sutcliffe was worried about the fact that I have read it to myself.  If he would only be quiet everything will come right.  Alles sal regkom.  I take it that that motion is accepted by the House.
 
	ANNEXURE A

	RULES RELATING TO THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

	DELEGATES

Appointment of Permanent Delegates

1.	For the period which commences on the date that the Constitution comes into effect and which ends immediately before the first Sitting of the House held after its first election under such Constitution, the House shall, by way of Resolution, appoint its permanent delegates in accordance with item 7 of Schedule 6 of the Constitution.



Proof of Appointment as Permanent Delegates

2.	The Speaker shall:

	(a)	certify the appointment of the permanent delegates;

	(b)	certify compliance with sections 61 and 62 of the Constitution;  and

	(c)	provide a copy of such certification to the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and each permanent delegate.

Appointment of Special Delegates

3.	(1)	If the House is sitting, the House shall designate, by way of Resolution, and with the concurrence of the Premier and the leaders of the parties entitled to special delegates, special delegates as required from time to time, from among the Members of the House.

	(2)	If the House is not sitting:

		(a)	The Speaker, with the concurrence of the Premier and the leaders of the parties entitled to special delegates, may designate special delegates, as required from time to time, from among the Members of the House.

		(b)	The names of the special delegates and the period or purpose of their designation shall be published in the minutes of the House on its first Sitting day after the designation.

	(3)	The designation of special delegates must indicate the period or purpose of the designation.

	(4)	The designation of a special delegate may be terminated at any time:


		(a)	if the House is sitting, be Resolution of the House and with the concurrence of the Premier and the leaders of the parties entitled to special delegates;

		(b)	if the House is not sitting, by the Speaker, with the concurrence of the Premier and the leaders of the parties entitled to special delegates.



Proof of Designation as Special Delegates

4.	The Speaker shall:

	(a)	certify the designation of special delegates and the period or purpose of the designation;

	(b)	certify compliance with section 61 of the Constitution;  and

	(c)	provide a copy of such certification to the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and each special delegate.


Permanent Delegates' Rights and Duties in the House

5.	(1)	The Province's permanent delegates to the NCOP may attend, and may speak in the House and its committees, but may not vote.

	(2)	The House may require a permanent delegate to attend the House or its committees.

	PROVINCIAL STANDING COMMITTEE ON
	NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Constitution and Membership

6.	(1)	The Speaker shall, as soon as is practical after the commencement of the first Sitting after a general election, and in consultation with the representatives of the various parties represented in the House, appoint a Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces consisting of thirteen members.

	(2)	When appointing members to this committee, the Speaker shall apply the principle of proportional representation: Provided that every party represented in the House shall have at least one member on this committee.

	(3)	The Speaker may from time to time, and with the agreement of a representative of the party in question, replace a member of the committee with another member of that party.

	(4)	The members of the committee shall from within their own ranks elect a chairperson and a deputy chairperson of that committee.

Powers, Functions and Duties of the Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces

7.	(1)	The Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces shall, in liaison with the Leader of the House, monitor progress made in the consideration of all Bills referred to it, ensure that all deadlines are met and that there is compliance with the procedures and time frames specified in the Standing Rules and Orders of the National Council of Provinces.

	(2)	The Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces may:

		(a)	make recommendations for consideration by the House on representations to be made to the National Assembly for the passing of national legislation, including but not limited to legislation which, if passed, would affect the provinces;

		(b)	initiate or prepare legislation falling within a functional area listed in Schedule 4 of the Constitution as referred to in section 76 (3) of the Constitution, but may not initiate or prepare Money Bills.

Section 74 and 76 Bills

8.	(1)	When Bills contemplated in sections 74 and 76 of the Constitution are referred to the House by the National Council of Provinces, the Speaker shall, upon receipt thereof, refer them to the Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces.

	(2)	In respect of such Bills the Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces shall:

		(a)	determine the priority and order of consideration;

		(b)	determine the time frames for consideration and report;

		(c)	refer such Bills to the appropriate committee and Minister for consideration, recommendation and report;

		(d)	consider the report of the standing portfolio committee and, in the light thereof and after voting if necessary:

			(i)	mandate the provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces, which mandate may include, but is not limited to, supporting or rejecting the Bill, conditional or otherwise;

			(ii)	advise the National Council of Provinces Secretariat of any proposed amendments to the Bill.

Sections 75 and 77 Bills

9.	(1)	The Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces shall;

		(a)	either on its own, or in consultation with an appropriate committee and/or Minister, consider all ordinary Bills as contemplated in sections 75 and 77 of the Constitution;

		(b)	determine the priority and order of consideration;

		(c)	determine the time frames for consideration and report.

	(2)	Copies of the Bills must be provided to special delegates designated for the purpose of the Bill or for the period during which the Bill will be considered by the National Council of Provinces.

Decisions

10.	When deciding on a question in the Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces, the members present representing a particular party shall vote as a block and such block vote will be taken as a number of votes equal to the number of Members representing that party in the House; Provided that where less than 75% of the votes cast are in favour of the proposed mandate, the matter shall be referred to the House for the determination of a mandate on the Bill or other matter in question.

	CONFERRING OF AUTHORITY TO VOTE

11.	Until such time as the national legislation referred to in section 65 (2) of the Constitution has been promulgated, the Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces shall, where it is able to decide on a matter, confer authority on the House's delegation to the National Council of Provinces.

Proof of Authority to Cast Votes

12.	(1)	When the Legislature or the Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces confers the authority to cast votes, the Speaker or his or her nominee shall:

		(a)	certify the conferral of authority to cast votes;  and

		(b)	provide a copy of such certification to the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and each special delegate.

	(2)	Where the Provincial Standing Committee on National Council of Provinces confers authority to cast a vote on a particular matter, such a decision must be reported to the Speaker by the Chairperson of the Committee within twenty-four hours.


CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS TO THE STANDING RULES:

Note:		Deletions from existing Standing Rules are printed in bold between square brackets [] and new insertions are underlined.

Secretary to furnish Members and Library with copies of Bills

112.	(1)	When a Bill, including Bills amending the Constitution, Ordinary Bills and Money Bills passed by the National Assembly and as referred to in sections 74 to 77 of the Constitution, has been introduced or deemed to have been introduced, the Secretary shall forthwith furnish each Member with a copy of such Bill, the explanatory memorandum, and any supporting documents.

	(2)	The Secretary shall circulate a list of all Bills, including those referred to the House which fall within the scope of sections 74 to 77 of the Constitution, to all Members and publish such list in the minutes of proceedings of the House.

	(3)	The Secretary shall ensure that copies of all Bills, including those referred to in sections 74 to 77 of the Constitution, are available in the libraries of the House.

THE ABOVE REPORT OF THE RULES STANDING COMMITTEE AGREED TO

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Unanimously agreed.  Before I call upon the Premier, does anybody want to either move a motion or have anything to say or probably the Chief Whip has nothing further to say.  Thank you very much.  We have completed our Orders for the day and finally I will call upon the hon the Premier to make such announcements as he may have.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, sir, and members of the Assembly.  No announcements other than to congratulate you and your Parliament for the new status that it now holds and also to admit the new members that have come in here, looking forward to engaging ourselves in positive debate in this House.  Some of them we have met at different stages and in different circumstances.  We are now all at once members of the Provincial Legislative Assembly here and I am quite sure that we will all embrace one another as brothers and sisters.  I thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER:  I make note of the fact that the Premier insists on embracing between brothers and sisters.  I hope that will not go very far.  [LAUGHTER]  Be that as it may be, the hon Chief Whip has something to say.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, you have got through the proceedings of the House very quickly this morning.  I simply wanted to point out to members that arrangements have been made for lunch.  It is still very early but I think an indication of who would be staying for lunch would certainly help as far as the caterers are concerned because if everyone left it would be unfortunate to have a large lunch ready for everybody.  I wonder, a show of hands just to give a rough idea would help, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Chief Whip.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker ...

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute, Mr Rajbansi, before I allow you to speak.  I wish to thank the hon Chief Whip for bringing this matter to the House.  The story has it that hell has no more fury than a woman scorned.  I am not a woman to be scorned.  For anybody to leave after all the preparation for lunch is, to say the least, not desirable on my part.  I will not disengage from my attempt to make you feel happy in this Legislature.  I will therefore not take the trouble of asking people to show up, I will assume and I am sure everybody will turn up and not have any objection to have this lunch.  It is there ready for everybody. They have taken the trouble to prepare in good faith knowing that we are all of the same mind, our minds are ad idem and therefore there is no need for the showing of hands.  I do not give an opportunity for dissention on this one.  I am prepared to be a dictator on this one issue.  Thank you.

MR I C MEER:  May I, sir, with great respect point out that those people who are fasting, if they are absent, you will understand the valid godly reason for that particular action.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Meer.  I am not so unreasonable as to not make allowances of that nature and therefore this has come to the end of our day's proceedings and therefore I will adjourn the House until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.  Well, I learn it was only one day.  The motions therefore will be discussed on some other day.  I wish you all of the best until the great day comes at the great city of Ulundi when you will have your Parliament.  You will not scorn, repeat scorn the preparation for you to eat in the same manner as I ask you to do here.  Thank you very much for that.  The House adjourns until further notice.

	
	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 11:05 SINE DIE


	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	SECOND SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 19 FEBRUARY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 11:40 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ULUNDI.

HIS MAJESTY, THE KING, KING GOODWILL ZWELITHINI KABHEKUZULU, KASOLOMON KADINUZULU, IS ESCORTED INTO THE CHAMBER BY THE SPEAKER.

THE POLICE BAND PLAYS THE NATIONAL ANTHEM.

THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  May I take this opportunity to inform the House that the speech of His Majesty will be with us shortly.  I will call upon the House to have patience with us for the moment and that certainly will be done.  Thank you.

It is now my please to call upon His Majesty to address the House.  As Your Majesty pleases.

HIS MAJESTY, THE KING:  Mr Speaker, sir, Premier of KwaZulu-Natal, Dr Frank Mdlalose, Dr M G Buthelezi, Prince of KwaPhindangene and Minister of Home Affairs, members of the Royal Family, visiting parliamentarians, members of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature, members of the Diplomatic Corps, Amakhosi, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen.

Once again we are gathered here to begin a session which gives us an opportunity to carry out our noble duties.  These duties were assigned to us by all those who participated in the voting exercise in 1994.  These duties must include even those who did not vote at all.  I reckon that good leadership takes the interest of all citizens across party lines or political interests.  We will serve our country effectively if we place development and a serious delivery of services above politics.

How overwhelming it is to live through our present historical events.  The fastness with which history is made around us is sometimes intimidating, although challenging.  We meet here today for the first time after South Africa has had its Constitution completed.  Different political groups and even non-political groupings have had different opinions about the Constitution.  I have no doubt that different viewpoints, expressed in various ways, have ultimately added required dimensions to the Constitution.  Without those inputs the Constitution would be less qualitative.  I hope, Mr Speaker, Sir, your House will continue to explore all possibilities of co-operating and lodging firm foundations for posterity in this country.

It is indeed a very special time for us in KwaZulu-Natal as a Province.  We have witnessed the first ever democratic elections for Local Government.  It is a well-known fact that in the light of these regional elections we in KwaZulu-Natal have reached a most crucial stage of our development.

In the creation of history we are witnessing we would not like just to be statistics.  We would not like to be simply consumers of what is around us.  We must not wait to be only respondents to challenges or initiatives of other people, or to be consulted by whoever is participating in the engineering of change should not be our ultimate objective.  You at the forefront of Government leadership should enable us to originate ideas and action.  We need to strike a balance between being led and following willy-nilly.  We need a balance between seeing events take place and causing events to occur.

THE ECONOMY

We all are aware of the biggest challenge facing us in KwaZulu-Natal today, the need to totally restructure, redevelop and rebuild our Province.  We have inherited an economy which has the potential to be one of the strongest in South Africa.  I fully agree with the United States of America Vice-President Al Gore when he said on his arrival in Durban that, "KwaZulu-Natal is a beacon of hope".

DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS

There have been different major business developments in KwaZulu-Natal over the past 12 months.  Some of these projects currently on stream, include:

-	The International Convention Centre in Durban which is well on its way to being one of the best in the world.

-	The five star Hilton Hotel, also in Durban is also on target to be officially opened in August 1997.

There are also capital projects in excess of R12 billion that are in the pipeline for KwaZulu-Natal.  Among the large capital projects linked with the province are:

-	Transnet's project for the Durban Point area;
-	AECI chemical and penicillin plants at Ezimbokodweni;
-	Richards Bay Harbour projects and others.

It has been particularly comforting to read about the possible R21 billion that may be generated in KwaZulu-Natal in 1997.  We owe this spectacular success to the sound leadership of the Premier, Dr F T Mdlalose and his Government.  We owe this potential to the policies that have encouraged a free economic system in this Province and to have a reputation of a good work ethic of the people of KwaZulu-Natal.  Mr Speaker, I am now more convinced that KwaZulu-Natal will soon become the hub of economic activity for the Republic of South Africa.  Let us all commit ourselves towards achieving that.

CRIME AND CORRUPTION

I have learned that, Dr F T Mdlalose, on your behalf, declared war against the Goliaths that are in the form of unemployment, disease, ignorance, exploitation, dishonesty and violence.  I think it is high time all of us sat down to quantify what we have individually and collectively done to help alleviate these ills of society.

We should ask ourselves how much we are contributing towards making this Province safe and secure so that tourists can consider us their first port of call.  When we can present a good image as a Province to tourists, more investments will be attracted and eventually unemployment figures will decrease significantly.

BLACK ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT

As your King, I have travelled extensively locally and even internationally in an effort to intervene, to bring peace, stability and economic growth to our Province.

During my recent visit to the United States of America where, on your behalf, I accepted a Humanitarian Award for peace in recognition of our struggle to bring a better life for all, I had discussions with relevant potential investors.  I managed to secure firm undertakings to sponsor rural community development demonstration projects and multi-million Rand investment partnership proposals for our Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  On the 12th of this month, I handed over these investment partnership proposals to Black economic empowerment groups with a mandate to carry them forward.  I expect the Government to take an active role in promoting Black economic empowerment by bringing those who were previously disadvantaged into the mainstream of the economy.

CULTURAL CENTRE

Like the great African American leader, I quote, Dr Martin Luther King, I have a dream and my dream, is that one day we will rise to the occasion of reaffirming our Zulu culture, reviving our traditional family values of Ubuntu and nation building.  This dream will come true, by the grace of the Almighty.  Plans are currently being put in place to develop major cultural projects for our Province, encompassing cultural education and training for nation building and various cultural tourism projects.

I remain convinced that my participation in the various discussions in this regard have and will continue to bear fruit, with the ultimate objective being the complete reconciliation and unity of the Zulu nation.

AIDS

At present our Province has alarming figures regarding Aids.  I am aware of the seriousness with which your Government, Mr Premier, is addressing this problem.  Even international workshops on Aids have been held in this Province, under the auspices of the Department of Health.

EDUCATION

Our hopes are in the Department of Education and Culture regarding the war that must be continually waged against ignorance.  As the Department begins to mount strong syllabuses for adult and life-long education.  I have no doubt that ignorance will be attacked from all directions.  Street children, young adults who dropped out of school and have been unemployed for a long time, people who have resorted to crime in order to earn a living, perpetrators of fraud in Government offices, all need our assistance educationally.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING

My people of this Province have specific needs which can be effectively addressed by the different Government departments in this Province.  They need houses from the Department of Local Government and Housing.  We hope eventually the problem of squatter settlements can be solved.  I also hope that the discussions I had last year with Local Government representatives, the Mayors and also the Premier about removal of obstacles to delivery of services by Local Councils will now bear fruit.

TRANSPORT AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

People need roads from the Department of Transport.  We hope ultimately the question of faked driver's licences can be addressed.  They expect guidance as they run their small businesses from the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism.  For long they have struggled for revival after their losses during the high tide of violence in the Province.

SOCIAL WELFARE

My people believe in the Department of Social Welfare to smoothen the manner in which social pension money is paid out and the control of corruption.  They also hope people challenged by special needs in their lives, like the blind, the deaf and those in wheelchairs, can be exposed to programmes which will help them actualise the many talents they have to be independent and as progressive as any other person in society.

PUBLIC WORKS

My people also look up to the Department of Public Works for the provision of suitable official accommodation for public servants.  People experience the concrete delivery of services by many Government departments, through the Department of Works as it implements programmes in the community, be these roads, bridges, schools or maintenance of Government buildings.

FINANCE

It is clear to me that many of us do not appreciate sufficiently the exacting work that is done by the Department of Finance as it argues for a budget that can help this Province deliver.  People expect this Department to help them experience the positive impact and interventions of Government as it ensures that funds are respectively utilised in the best possible way.

AGRICULTURE

I am not expected to declare which my favourite department is, but what may be considered a mother of all departments is now watched with keener eyes than ever before.  That is the Department of Agriculture. My people look up to this Department for expert assistance, for drought relief and for meaningful projects that will change the lives of those people who are prepared to do farming but have been handicapped by apartheid laws before.  We also saw for the first time, Black farmers being given an opportunity to own sugar cane farms.  There is now hope for the small sugar cane farmers further north of Ulundi as the US Trade and Development Agency has approved my request to United States of America State Department to conduct a feasibility study to establish a sugar cane mill at Makhathini Flats.

TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Last but not least, the Department of Traditional Affairs and Conservation.  Looking after the lives of Amakhosi, Induna and many people on tribal land, this Department carries the responsibility of being a custodian of our traditions and values.  In addition it is responsible for looking after an important commodity which is valued by tourists, namely wild animals and natural resources.  People look up to this Department for rural development and for helping put in context debates regarding gender issues and traditional practices that need modification or a re-interpretation.

I wish to refer to the Department of the Premier insofar as it serves the Monarchy.  The Monarchy is aware of the tremendous work that the Department of the Premier has to do in order to satisfy its needs.  It is appreciated that some refurbishments have begun at some Palaces.  I need not even point out that each Palace has behind it a significant history of the Zulu nation.  It is my pleasure to acknowledge the outstanding interest that has been shown by His Excellency Dr Buthelezi, Prince of KwaPhindangene, in the Palaces of the former Kings and myself.

Were it not also for Nyanda, his Cabinet and supportive members of the Legislative Assembly, more uninformed and sometimes denigrating statements would have been levelled against the integrity of the Monarch.  I believe that we need to encourage cross-cultural awareness in order to assist those who do not know our history and the Zulu culture so that they do not make statements that may sound provocative or even undermining the Zulu culture.  Thanks to the Department of the Premier for working out policies that will finally facilitate a smooth relationship between the Monarch and the Government.

This year again I intend observing the different traditional ceremonies eg Umhlanga, Umkhosi WokweShwama and Umkhosi WeLembe.  Last year I had mentioned in this House that a Silver Jubilee would be taking place.  The Provincial Government accepted the suggestion in principle and Task Teams were formed, but due to certain reasons the Jubilee could not be celebrated.  The idea has not been abandoned and I hope the Task Teams will be resuming their discussions.

PEACE

This year we are opening our Parliament with the hope that many efforts were made last year in order to do away with violence and the killing of people because of their political affiliation.  Initiatives by church leaders have come to light and also certain political leaders have shown their sincerity in trying to stop violence.

There is nothing that makes me so happy, like seeing the multiplication of people who are committed to working towards peace and reconciliation.  Daily a number of people have come forward and shown themselves to be lovers of peace.  I wish this could go on.

Last Sunday we were gathered in commemoration of our great hero Dr J L Dube (uMafukuzela) at Ohlange.  I thank my uncle, the Prince of KwaPhindangene, with whom we attended the gathering aimed at fostering peace.

RECONCILIATION

I wish to make it known that since people have come forward and shown that they are sick and tired of violence, that they do not want to be treated as animals, it is of paramount importance that the process of reconciliation should be encouraged within the nation.  Many things occurred last year which are indications of steps taken to reconcile my father's people.  The celebration of the Heritage Day was held with great co-operation.  This also recurred with the celebration of King Shaka's Day at KwaDukuza where a speech was read on my behalf as I was in America.  Efforts of reconciling the Zulu nation and the Royal family have proceeded and culminated with the meeting at Enyokeni Palace in October.  All these things that I have mentioned are important steps towards full reconciliation and unity amongst Zulus.  There is no need for us to retrogress now.  We must move forward.

The leaders of the IFP and the ANC in this Province, namely Nyanda and Msholozi have shown a good quality of leadership and their commitment towards curtailing violence between their respective followers.  I wish that this spirit of reconciliation and working towards peace and prosperity progresses even after Nyanda has retired from his post.

DEVELOPMENT

Since there is a spirit of peace and reconciliation in the land, it will be better for us to use this opportunity to work hand in hand in order to bring about development in our communities.  I will be very happy if the Amakhosi co-operate in this.  It will be better if each and every Inkosi plans that there will be change in development in their respective areas.

THE MONARCHY AND THE GOVERNMENT (COUNCIL OF MINISTERS)

The Kingdom of KwaZulu-Natal is very old and known all over the world.  It is an undeniable truth that here in KwaZulu-Natal there are more than 300 Amakhosi under the control of the King.  There is no other province here in South Africa with a Kingdom similar to that of the Zulus.  It sometimes surprises me if we hear that there are those who compare themselves with the Kingdom of KwaZulu yet fully knowing that this is not the case.

Since the Central Government has initiated the Council of Traditional Leaders, it would be better if the Central Government considers this in setting up the way in which these Regions of the Council are going to be represented in this Council of Traditional Leaders.

I request members of this House who have colleagues in the Central Government parties to help each other and to make it clear the manner in which the KwaZulu Monarchy differs.  If the need arises I will end up convening a meeting with the President of the country in order to discuss the issue.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, may I say how uplifting it is to see the apparent peaceful spirit that prevails now in this House.  Congratulations Nyanda, and to many other Princes and Princesses of peace.  The rich mix of tradition and talent in this House can only make our Province No 1.  I have no doubt that we can provide an example of how Parliament resolves problems, how it mobilises against any impediments and how it writes to achieve only the best for its people across the board.  It is my pleasure now to declare this Assembly open.


THE SPEAKER:  It is now my pleasure to call upon the Premier to propose a vote of thanks.  The hon the Premier.


THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, Your Majesty, members of the Royal Family, His Excellency Dr M G Buthelezi, Prince of KwaPhindangene and Chairman of the House of Traditional Leaders, Amakhosi, members of this Parliament and members of Parliaments outside KwaZulu-Natal, members of Parliament in the National Government, Your Excellencies, Dignitaries from other provinces, Officers of other Governments and institutions, members of the Diplomatic Corps, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen.

On behalf of this House, it is my honour to thank His Majesty for kindly agreeing to open this session officially this morning.

We are elated to have you amongst us, Your Majesty, and we wish to put on record our profound appreciation of both your presence and inspiring remarks that you have graciously made to us today.

When you speak, Your Majesty, vibrations of joy permeate different layers of our Nation.  The Nation looks up to you, Your Majesty, for guidance, compassion, care and vision.

Thank you, Your Majesty, for reminding us that development should by all means take precedence over our political affiliations.  It is not surprising to us that you emphasise the importance of development.

We are aware of the numerous trips you have undertaken overseas and in Africa and several projects that you have initiated.  Your distinguished interest in agriculture, which even led to being recognised by the University of Zululand is proof of your tenacity to development.

You have indeed motivated us to be engineers of action and managers of change.  We wish to assure you that we will refuse to be mere statistical evidence of change.  We commit ourselves to resourcefulness, diligence and creativity.  We would like to make KwaZulu-Natal a productive beacon of hope, to slightly embellish the United State Vice-President Al Gore's remark which you have cited, Your Majesty.

Your quantification of our modest successes in this Province have challenged us to do more.  My colleagues, I am sure, had to pinch themselves to believe their ears when you pronounced those accolades regarding economic achievements in this Province.  I am grateful on their behalf because known as it is that political careers can be thankless jobs, people are encouraged when occasionally their efforts are acknowledged.

This morning we have heard how His Majesty has worked hard to get sponsors and investments for KwaZulu-Natal.  We pray that those who have been chosen by His Majesty for fine-tuning and implementation of projects should do so selflessly and efficiently.  We would like to see people of this Province advance socially, politically and economically.

We wish to support His Majesty when his dream includes our rise to the heights of reaffirming our Zulu culture, invigorating our traditional family and community values of Ubuntu and nation building.  We know also how committed you are to the cultural diversity of this Province.

This has been evident by His Majesty's attending different cultural functions and inviting non-Zulus to participate in some of the traditional ceremonies that His Majesty has conducted at Enyokeni Palace.  We are glad to hear that arrangements are being made for a Cultural Centre.

Thank you, Your Majesty, for addressing us Department by Department.  This has awakened us to a rude shock that you keep count of the objectives and challenges of each Department.

All the good work you have referred to and our best intentions to burn the midnight oil to toil for our old age, our children and our future, will not come to pass if we have no peace.  It is true that we have declared war against violence.  True as it is that violence still lingers on, figures tell us that it has in fact decreased.  Violence is anathema and should be obliterated entirely in our society.  We have insisted on objectivity and strict non-partisanship in stemming out violence in our Society.

Mr Speaker, Your Majesty, we have referred to an issue that went to the bottom of my heart.  I am referring to the issue of reconciliation.  His Majesty said:

	I wish it to make it known that since people have come forward and shown that they are sick and tired of violence, that they do not want to be treated as animals, it is of paramount importance that the process of reconciliation should be encouraged within the nation.

Reconciliation is an admirable custom amongst Zulus which has expressed and strengthened and revived dialogue and sincerity of mutual respect.  Your Majesty, great misery that is affecting your nation has been caused by lack of reconciliation.  Others take their different directions.  Others are being sought from all sides, being asked to reconcile themselves with others but all in vain.

However, I swear earnestly other nations can pay a lot of money to attain our skill of reconciliation if people at loggerheads relent and are reconciled.

I was comforted when I heard His Majesty saying what happened at Enyokeni Palace at attempts towards reconciliation.  Important steps towards reconciliation are:

	Are important steps towards reconciliation and unity of the Zulu nation.

Our hopes, Your Majesty, are pinned on you.  All reconciliation that is expected by your people with keen eyes should happen within a very short space of time because we are sick and tired of seeing lack of peace, stability, mutual respect and integrity of the Zulu Monarchy which the Zulu nation is known and which was left by King Shaka who is the one who founded the nation and made it into a formidable nation being destroyed.

I have enjoyed working with you, Your Majesty.  Thank you very much for your co-operation which led to successes of those projects or undertakings that we tackled together.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion I wish to pledge our support to His Majesty and to assure him of our loyalty always and commitment to the development of everything around us so that this becomes a No One Province in South Africa.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

HON MEMBERS PRESENT GAVE HIS MAJESTY, THE KING, THE ROYAL GREETING

THE SPEAKER:  The King will now leave the chamber and I call upon the House to stand.  As it pleases, His Majesty will leave us.  We will await the return of the Sergeant-at-Arms before we sit.

HIS MAJESTY, THE KING, LEAVES THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Next on the Order Paper, I have the following announcement to make.  I wish to announce that the National Party member, Mr V J Mchunu, has resigned with effect from 18 February 1997 to become a member of the National Assembly.  The vacancy has been filled by the appointment of Mr James Charles Norval Waugh, who was this morning sworn in by me in my office.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Welcome, Mr Waugh, and I am sure if you come from the Central Government there is usually absolute order in this Parliament, unlike down there.  I am sure you will take the cue from what happens here.

I will therefore call upon the Secretary to make announcements.  The hon Secretary.

THE SECRETARY:  There are places where people are going to get refreshments.  Abantwana [children] and Amakhosi, will go to B-South where they will receive their refreshments.  Members of the police and drum majorettes will have to go to the basement of this building.  Members of the community and Amabutho present, all those that I have just mentioned are going to a place specially erected at the south of this building.  Others know where they are to get their meals.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Secretary.  I will now call upon the Premier to make such announcement as he may have.  The hon Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, and hon members.  It will be recalled that we now have a National Council of Provinces which replaces the Senate.  It will be recalled that the chairperson is Mr Patrick Lekota and that the deputy chairperson is Mr B Ngcuka.  We informed these two people about this official opening of our Parliament today.

This morning Mr Patrick Lekota rang me up and requested me to pass a message of congratulations on our official opening of this Parliament on behalf of himself and on behalf of his colleague Mr Ngcuka.  He regrets very much that they are unable to be here today.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please!

THE PREMIER:  But he has assured me that he and Mr Ngcucka will be present when the Legislative Assembly of KwaZulu-Natal elects its new Premier in the middle of March.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  It is now my pleasure to declare this House adjourned until tomorrow at ten.  Order please! Order please!  May I remind the members that in terms of your Rules, before the Speaker leaves the chamber there will be order please.  Thank you.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 12:58 UNTIL
	10:00 ON THURSDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	SECOND SITTING - SECOND SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:15 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ULUNDI.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:
  
2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

May I take this opportunity to mention to the House that I think during the holiday we lost the mother of one of our members here, Mrs Luthuli, the widow of the famous Luthuli.  This happened during the recess.  I do not see her daughter here.  I would like to take this opportunity to ask the House to stand in honour of her.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS STAND

THE SPEAKER:  May her soul rest in peace.  Amen.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I have to announce that the Finance Portfolio Committee will be meeting at 8:00 on Friday, 21 February 1997 at the Mnyamana Buthelezi Conference Room to discuss the process of dealing with the budget estimates.  That is the announcement I have to make.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

The hon the Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker and colleagues.  It is with sadness that I have to announce that there has been yet another disaster in Donnybrook on 18 February, that is the day before yesterday at about 5:00pm.  A tornado struck and houses were destroyed.  The number of houses actually destroyed are too many to count.  71 people have been left without clothing or food.  30 school children are without books, uniforms and without clothing, this having been destroyed.  Eight people have been injured and are in hospital.  Luckily there is no report of any deaths.

The areas that are affected in Donnybrook are areas called Mjila's area, Dlamini's area, Junction area.  There has been a follow-up already by way of involvement of the Red Cross.  My colleague, Minister Inkosi Ngubane, whose area it is that is affected in Hlanganani and colleague Minister Prince Gideon Zulu, both of them are making arrangements to visit the area and to get the involvement of the Department of Welfare and perhaps even the National Department of Welfare.  They will be visiting the area in the course of the day and we have already arranged for a helicopter to pick them up at about 1 o'clock from Oribi to this area.  They may be delayed in coming here or they may in fact not come here this morning.  We will see what happens.  I thank you, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS 

I was given to understand there might be a tabling of a report on public accounts but I am sure Mr Volker is in a better position to let me know what the position about tabling that is.  This comes from the Provincial Auditor-General which I have got here, which was brought to my notice, direct to the Speaker by the controlling Auditor-General.

I am really not too sure whether the Speaker should be in a position to table this.  Probably the person in charge of public accounts is the person to table this.  The hon Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, that is a report which the Auditor-General in terms of the Public Accounts and Auditors' Act submits directly to the Speaker before he submits it to the members of this House.  So it is not a report to be tabled at this stage,  in terms of the Auditors' Act.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, thank you very much.  Then I will jump the gun in that event.  Shall we therefore proceed.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, may I suggest by way of assistance that the portfolio committees that dealt with the legislation are obligated in terms of our Rules to submit their reports, otherwise if I raise a technicality later on it will prevent the deliberation on a Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I am at a loss to know then in terms of procedure, what Mr Rajbansi is raising now fits into this.  I am at a loss to know.  Be that as it may, allow me to proceed with the Order Paper as it is.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS AND/OR MOTIONS

Mr Meer?

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, Sir, I will move the following motion on the next sitting day of this House, that is Friday, 21 February 1997.

	Noting that 21 February 1997, is the 70th Anniversary of the historic Cape Town agreement of 1927 concluded between the Governments of India and the Government of South Africa.  And further noting that also in February 1927, Josiah Gumede and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, representing their country's respective liberation organisations, led their countries at Brussels against colonial oppression in Africa, Asia and Latin America, when the International League Against Imperialism and National Oppression was formed.

	THIS HOUSE PAYS TRIBUTE TO OUR PREMIER, THE HON DR FRANK MDLALOSE, for leading our strong all-party delegation to India and thereby further cementing the traditional historic relationship which has existed between the Governments and the people of the two countries in which MAHATMA GANDHI made his great freedom contribution.  We congratulate the Premier and his delegation for their positive international role in the visit to India and elsewhere.  The Premier on the eve of his retirement made this historic contribution for which he will be remembered by the present and future generations.

THE SPEAKER:  Now, may I call on the member to reserve his breath to actually substantiating the debate and the motion when that comes in.  If he says it now I do not know what he will say tomorrow.

MR I C MEER:  That is all, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Be that as it may, may I once again bring to your notice, motions are a very good thing, but at the same time let us not abuse this situation where we actually make speeches which you should be making in support of your motion.  Is there no way in which there could be a situation of brevity being the soul of wit and things are backed graphically.  Then tomorrow of course we have such beautiful talks, which is good and necessary, and hear it when the member has more time than he has now.

MR I C MEER:  With great respect to you, sir, unless we have some clear indication of what such motion should be, we are making, in our wisdom what we considered to be within the precedent and the requirements of this House.  Therefore, sir, any curtailment of a resolution or motion of this type would amount to an intrusion on the freedom of speech.  I say no more.

THE SPEAKER:  I do not think this should be a subject of debate between myself and the hon member on this issue.  In fact it has at one stage come up in this House, I do not intend opening a debate on this, I have made my point and I still insist that it is not the idea actually to stop people proposing motions, that is as it should be.  I have said, is there no way by which brevity can be the soul of wit, to convey what should be conveyed in shorter terms.  Then tomorrow of course, on any following day, we are in a position to hear the whole wisdom.

MR G S BARTLETT:   Mr Speaker, on this particular issue, if I may come back to what you have just said.  May I suggest that you as Speaker, put this matter to our Rules Committee.  You have heard the hon member.  He says as long as the Rules allow him to do this, he will continue to do it.  I want to assure you if this is the way they plan to abuse this particular notice of motion, then other parties will also continue to do it.  So may I suggest that we do what he requests and that is get the Rules Committee to look at this thing and make sure that this abuse does not continue, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  That puts an end to the whole question now.  Let us not get into a debate.  No, no, no, I will not allow more debate on this issue.  This matter will go to the Rules Committee for finality.  Let us not get into a debate now.  This is not the time for a debate.  The Rules Committee will make whatever Rules it deems fit.  After all it comes back here.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Are we now going to endlessly get into this?  I thought it was not in dispute that in fact people should be allowed to say what they want to say.  It is the wrong time to get into a discussion.  What will the Rules Committee discuss if we must decide it now?  Please just hold your horses.  Spare your breath for the following day and then surely everybody will have a say.  I am not stopping anybody but I plead, please I plead this should not be a matter of discussion now.  Nobody is stopped from discussing it.  After the Rules Committee has discussed it there will be ample time to discuss the matter when the Rules are presented to the House.  Please hold your horses.  Let us proceed with the business of the House.  Thank you.  Now we have No 8 on the Order Paper.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Oh I am sorry, I withdraw.  All right, Mr Rajbansi.  Yes, yes, of course.  I think it was Mr Rajbansi first and then Mr Haygarth thereafter.  I am sorry, please excuse me.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I want to mention that I am giving an executive summary of my notice of motion.  The actual debate will be a thousand times more than what I have written.  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That this House notes with appreciation the following:

	1.	That the Parks Board of this Province appears to have a rethink on the ban on shad.
	2.	That there is a campaign to allow persons to catch at least three fish daily for home consumption and for sale.
	3.	That the relevant Committee and the members of this Legislature were being guided by the scientists and were not prepared to take political decision on the cry to lift the ban on shad.

	The House also notes that there are signals from the scientists that the individual fishermen were being penalised unfairly and unjustly when the main culprits were the commercial fishermen.

	Therefore it be resolved to request the relevant authorities to decommercialise shad fishing and declare shad as a recreation fish and to this end obtain the opinion and the advice of a very learned member of our High Court in this Province, the hon Justice Broome.

I hope that this was quite short, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  It could have been shorter than that but nevertheless it is being allowed.

AN HON MEMBER:  Your motivation sounds fishy.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Mr Rajbansi.  [LAUGHTER]  Order please! The hon Mr Rajbansi has the floor.  We shall listen to him.

MR A RAJBANSI:  My second motion, I am forced to move a few motions.  I tried to condense it the last time and I was accused of being long.  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That this House recognises the fact that the historic political changes in the country led to our country's participation in international sports.

	There appear to be cosmetic changes only in certain codes of sports.  Recently during the cricket test match that was played at the Kingsmead ground it was conspicuous that those who manned the ground from those in the ticket boxes, the turnstiles, the ushers and the security were Whites only, while those who were not Whites were given the duty to sell hats and flags on the roadside.

	There are those who believe that Mr Krish Mackurdhuj and his small band of Black officials are mere puppets of a small clique and their highest priority is to keep their cosy positions.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  On a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order please.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order please.  Just a minute.  I will therefore give preference to the Chief Whip even though it was the other member who stood first.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would like to submit for your consideration, sir, that the previous motion moved by that hon member and the present motion being moved by that member, there would actually be very little left to say in a debate that would ensue out of that motion if in fact the debate was held.  That member, in addition, is busy making a speech.  The first motion would be to his own political advantage on shad fishing and would probably be in the papers tomorrow.

His next motion, and that member continually raises it in this House, and I think we need to look at it carefully as members of this House, he continually raises racial issues in this House which quite frankly ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  Excuse me, it is a reality.

THE SPEAKER:  Order! Order please!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip): ...which quite frankly we are sick of in this House.

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  No, no.  Order please. 

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  He is playing dangerous games, Mr Speaker, and I would like you to listen carefully to what he has got to say because it is not a motion.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear! INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Order please! Order please!  The hon member please.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, further on the point of order.  The hon member is at liberty to raise racial issues here in motions but what he is in fact doing is motivating with all sorts of subjective arguments and I would move that that is totally inappropriate for a motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes please.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I have the democratic right to move a motion.  You have given a ruling arising out of a motion moved by Mr Meer.  I abide by that ruling.  But if the truth is hurting people who believe and support those who are not changing, that is their dilemma.

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order, Mr Rajbansi.  I thought you would continue with your notice of motion instead of getting to the motion because that will be of good use tomorrow in response, just in case the Chief Whip raises the issue again.  At the present moment you stick to the notice of motion.  You will motivate your reply in ample time tomorrow.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you.

	Therefore this House resolves to request the National Minister of Sports to take whatever steps he deems it necessary to probe as to whether there are real changes in cricket with particular reference to the last colonial outpost - KwaZulu-Natal.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I have another one, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Three in all.  I do not know the limit to which you can raise these motions.  Can anybody help me on that?  Well, I will not stop the hon member.  Please proceed.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That this House is concerned with the effectiveness of the Masakhane Campaign.  It is also important that political leaders at Parliamentary and Local Government levels set excellent examples as they are to pass judgment on defaulters.

HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order please!  Carry on.

MR A RAJBANSI:  

	The House expresses its concern that Local Councillors refuse to declare the fact as to whether they are paying rates and for water consumption and therefore it be resolved to request the Government to make it compulsory for all the members of Parliament as well as for all Local Councillors to make it public that details of the payments relating to rates and other municipal charges and to provide for removal from office those who fail to make such disclosures in the best interests of good governance and also in the interest of the public.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I have two more, Mr Speaker.  I have two more motions, I could move them after others are given the opportunity.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, do you not think it will be fair to give the opportunity to other people.  We appreciate your zealousness.  We appreciate the good level that the hon member has done.  May you, for the moment, hold your horses there and give the same opportunity to other members.  Mr Haygarth or perhaps preferably the Minister.  I had asked Mr Haygarth, actually he is the first person to speak but just with due respect to the Minister, Mr Haygarth, if you do not mind.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I wish to move this motion according to Rule 104(g):

	THAT THIS HOUSE NOTING: 
	The strong campaign to establish peace and reduce the level of violence and create the climate that is investor-friendly led amongst others by the Premier of the Province, Dr F T Mdlalose and Minister for Economic Affairs, hon Mr J G Zuma;

	-	That this process of Peace and Reconciliation has been fully supported by the wide community of KwaZulu-Natal, His Majesty the King, the Legislature and the private sector;

	-	and recognising that the presence of His Majesty, the King and the opening address strongly enriched the spirit of the opening of the Legislature on 19 February 1997 which has been warm, friendly and has contributed significantly to the process of reconciliation amongst the people of this Province.

	THEREFORE:
	-	commends His Majesty the King, for the strong message of Peace and Reconciliation, emphasising community development above party political interest;
	-	commend the Premier for reinforcing this message in his vote of thanks;
	-	commit ourselves to working tirelessly for the establishment of lasting peace and reconciliation amongst people of this Province, between political parties, traditional leaders and the Royal Household.

		Sithi ume njalo Bhejane phuma esiqiwini.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, the hon Minister.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  It was half the size.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Half the size, yes.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Certainly.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Before we go on to the next motion, sorry.

THE SPEAKER:  What is the position now?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, before we go on to the next motion.  The hon Minister of Health moved this motion in terms of Rule 104(g).  I have discussed it with all the other parties in the House and they have all agreed that they unanimously concur.  So could it therefore become a resolution of this House.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much for pointing that out.  Yes, Mr Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, what the hon Whip says is correct.  That motion has been discussed with the various parties.  It has been discussed with the Premier and on behalf of the IFP I have pleasure in accepting it.

MOTION AS MOVED BY DR Z L MKHIZE - PASSED.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  That settles the motion of the hon Minister.  Actually I had given preference to the Minister because he is a Minister and the second person was Mr Haygarth.  The Minister concerned has told me he will take half the time and therefore I duly grant him that opportunity.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I also wish to move as follows:

	THAT THIS HOUSE NOTING:
	-	the severity of HIV/AIDS with an average of six infants dying every day as a result in this Province;
	- 	that antenatal surveys show that about one in five pregnant women are HIV positive;
	-	that members of this House resolve to commit themselves to double their efforts in the fight against this dreadful disease.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Mr Haygarth please.  I have kept you waiting for so long.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In terms of the Rules I give notice that I will move the following motion on the next sitting day:

	That this house views with considerable concern the deterioration in the financial position of local government and the fact that the National Government has failed to reverse the situation (attributed to the culture of non-payment which it introduced) by means either of the Masakhane Campaign or any other positive action and calls upon the Minister of Local Government and Housing to ensure that all local bodies apply all possible measures to reverse the situation.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  Oh I suppose it was first Dr Sutcliffe who stood up if he is going to move a motion.  May I give that opportunity to him.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to move on the next sitting day of this House:

	NOTING:
	-	the fact that the final report from the Public Accounts Committee in respect of the funding of Special Protection Units has not been tabled in this House;

	THEREFORE RESOLVES:
	That the Auditor-General be requested to finalise the investigations into this matter and report thereon to this House; and
	that this House take appropriate action in regard to the matters raised in that report.

Thank you, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes please, the hon member, yes.  No, no, no, the other hon member.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House:

	That the Parliamentary Executive Board be requested:

	1.	To perform a detailed personnel audit of all Parliamentary employees and in every instance with specific attention to:

		(a)	The job description;
		(b)	The centre or location at which persons are deployed; and
		(c)	The experience and skills levels of each employee and compatibility with the job description;

	2.	To investigate any specific areas in which Parliament is inadequately staffed or not staffed at all.

	3.	To make recommendations on redeployment of personnel where appropriate;

	and that the Executive Board should table its report to Parliament by 31 March 1997.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Well, the Department of Roads please.  

MR A RAJBANSI:  Can I rise on a point of order, Mr Speaker?

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  In connection with the Minister of Transport.  I would like a ruling from you.  Is it parliamentary for a Minister to call another political party in a newspaper to be like a mule?  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Just repeat yourself again.  I did not hear that one, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  That this Minister has referred to the NP in today's Mercury as a mule.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  That was kind.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, it may be so.

AN HON MEMBER:  Mules can kick very hard.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Very hard.  Perhaps it might be permissible.  The hon the Minister of Transport please.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, the hon Minister has the floor.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I wish to move an unopposed motion according to Rule 104(g):


	THAT this House expresses its deep condolences to the colleagues and families of the three members of the Maphumulo Lutheran Seminary who were tragically killed in a horror road accident in the Free State last Friday night, 14 February 1997.

	Amongst those killed in the accident were the Vice-rector of the Seminary Reverend Albert Sekhuba, Chaplain of the University of Zululand, Reverend C S Mngadi and the Seminary bookkeeper Mrs Mncube.  The Rector, Dr Biyela, was also in the vehicle and was injured in the accident.

	This House resolves to request the hon Speaker to convey our condolences to the Rt Rev Bishop Sibiya of the Lutheran Church.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, it is the other gentleman's turn before Your Ladyship.  I would have thought so too.  I think we will deal with this one, put it to the House, the support or non-support.  This is supposed to be a motion without opposition.  Now I put the motion.

MOTION AS MOVED BY MR J S NDEBELE - PASSED.

THE SPEAKER:  In any event it is a motion of the House.  I give you the opportunity before her Ladyship.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Gentlemen first now and ladies after.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, I have two simple motions which I shall move on the next sitting day.  Firstly:


	That bearing in mind that three years have elapsed and our term of office expires in two years time, each one of us should strive to engage in deliberations shorn of bigotry, intolerance and personalities and synchronise our efforts within the sphere of influence of the National Council of Provinces so that this phase of the restructural process may glitter with progress and be crowned with delivery.

Secondly, I move:

	That this House welcomes the announcement of at least two massive new dams, expected to be built in KwaZulu-Natal at a cost of R4,5 billion, to meet the growing demands of South Africa's Gauteng industrial outlands. 

	We take cognisance that these projects being linked to the Tugela River and the Tugela Basin proposals happening to be on the drawing board for the last 45 years and it is therefore incumbent upon this House to consider infrastructural developments in the interests of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, as recommended in the Thorington Smith report and the Deloitte and Touche report.

	This House accordingly calls upon the Premier to set the machinery in motion, to capitalise on the gigantic potential of the Tugela Basin.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, sir.  Your Ladyship please, if it so pleases you.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I move that:

	This House notes the figures reported Nationally for rape against children under 18 from January to December 1996 were 13 859 and for January 1997 the figures are 1 314.  The National Party urges this House to demand prompt and just response from the police, justice and counselling services and that the Ministers of Safety and Security and Welfare and all political leaders take such actions as may be necessary to eliminate this evil.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Madam.  The hon Mr Dlamini.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  The mike is not on by the looks of things.  Is it on?

MR F DLAMINI:  I am surprised and it is green.  It is everything.

THE SPEAKER:  It is supposed to be red.  Yours is going to be different to others.  Others are red, yours is green.

MR F DLAMINI:  Mr Speaker, I wish to give notice that on the following sitting day I will move as follows:

	Noting that the HIV/AIDS is increasing at alarming proportions and noting that this epidemic is not only a health hazard but a social economic scourge;

	further noting that fighting the spread of AIDS should not be left entirely to the Department of Health but be a serious responsibility of all departments.

	THEREFORE RESOLVES THAT:

	1.	An intersectoral committee be established to ensure that all departments are actively involved in fighting AIDS.

	2.	That all manufacturing and service providing enterprises in this Province implement HIV/AIDS awareness programmes.

This is in fact an addition to the motion that was moved by Dr Mkhize.  My second motion, Mr Speaker.  I wish to give notice that on the next sitting day I will move as follows:

	NOTING the slow processing of the pay-out choice namely, payment through the Bank or Post Office and noting that after the implementation of these pay choices we will continue to have social grant beneficiaries paid under the current system.

	Further noting the unbearable exposure of senior citizens to all elements.

	THEREFORE RESOLVES THAT:

	1.	Reliable monitors and assistance providers be placed at pay points to ensure better treatment of senior citizens.

	2.	The Department of Welfare and Population Development work hand in hand with local authorities to provide shelter for senior citizens soonest.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi, once more.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That this House is encouraged by the recognition given by the hon State President, Mr Nelson Mandela, in respect of the contributions of the Indian community to the development of our country.

	This House is also very much encouraged by the following statement made by the hon Leader of the Inkatha Freedom Party, the hon Dr M G Buthelezi, on the occasion of bidding farewell to the Indian Consul-General, Miss Late Reddy on 10 February 1997:

	"I have always recognised our Indian community in respect of the history of KwaZulu-Natal.  For many decades we, as Zulus, have benefitted a lot from our Indian brothers and sisters.  As a matter of fact the growth of the Indian community continues to be the engines of success in KwaZulu-Natal."

	Therefore it be resolved to request the hon the Premier, all the Ministers and the various Provincial State Departments to make use of this Indian engine that has been referred to by the hon Dr M G Buthelezi.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  My final one, Mr Speaker.  I may say that in order to debate this will take seven days so I have condensed it to one and a quarter minutes.

I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	THAT THIS HOUSE NOTES the thousands of small and medium sized businessmen and emerging entrepreneurs of the disadvantaged class looked at the first democratic elections with much hope so that the playing fields can be level so that a procurement policy would assist them against many giants who were favoured by apartheid.  Their hopes were further strengthened when the former Minister of Finance and the hon Premier of our Province gave undertakings that a policy on procurement would be formulated to assist such emerging entrepreneurs.

	THAT THIS HOUSE NOTES with concern that with the exception of a few Ministries and departments this Province has let the people down in the field of assisting disadvantaged entrepreneurs.  At a previous session the hon Minister of Education and Culture replied to a question from the Minority Front that a supplementary order of R74m was given to Acacia Booksellers, Rygills, Nasou and Via Afrika.  This Province was hoodwinked by the presentation ...

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order yes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I submit, sir, that this hon member is holding this House in contempt.  He is constantly, constantly, Mr Speaker, ignoring your rulings.  That I submit is not even remotely a motion.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  He is making a speech and he is abusing his privilege to freedom of speech in this House, to move motions which appear in newspapers tomorrow and give him all the publicity he wants.

AN HON MEMBER:  There is no motion there at all.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  That is not remotely a motion, Mr Speaker.  I request that you ask the member to take his seat and we strike what he said off the record.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, when the hon Chief Whip wakes up, in the light of your ruling which you have given and the first person who should respect the ruling of a Speaker is the Chief Whip of the majority party.  I notice that the only "Hear! Hear! came from certain individuals who will disagree that there should be changes in our country and I will complete this motion.  Here is another hon member whose name appears in the press.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Mr Rajbansi was given an opportunity to make his motion not to argue over what in fact anybody has said.  That point is over.  Let me hear the other party and I take it that Mr Rajbansi should be satisfied with the extent to which he has made some political speech or whatever it was.  It will all appear on the Order Paper and therefore no further reading of that motion now.  Thank you.  The hon member please.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, the request of the hon Chief Whip was that it be struck from the Order Paper and not be recorded and in fact I think it is inappropriate to record things that were not read in this House at all.  I rise on another point of order.

The hon member has now used his opportunity or abused it rather, in responding to the hon Chief Whip to actually cast aspersions on the motives of other parties in the process of his motion and I ask that you ask him to withdraw those.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.  There is a motion moved ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I will defend my right to take a stand in this House.  If the recorder could identify those who cheered the hon Chief Whip for the majority party whose graph appears to be lowering and he wants to higher it ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, no, no, no.  Order please.  We will not allow this to happen.  We will not allow this to happen please.  The hon member has been requested to withdraw and I call upon Mr Rajbansi to withdraw or say he will not withdraw and the matter ends there.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, may I know what must I withdraw?  I have not said anything unparliamentary.  I have not cast any aspersion on any party or any individual members of this hon House.  If I have violated the Rules I will withdraw but may I ask you what should I withdraw?

THE SPEAKER:  The point is you are given an opportunity to say you do not withdraw.  You have that right to say so.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, if I do not withdraw I want to know what must I withdraw?  A member asked you to ask me to withdraw.  I want to know what unparliamentary words I have mentioned?

THE SPEAKER:  Will the hon member please respond?

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, maybe technically the hon member is correct in that he has said nothing unparliamentary.  The request, however, is that the entire discussion of that hon member, including his purported motion is struck from the record because it is inappropriate in this House and it is certainly not a motion.  Part of what we object to, whilst it may not be unparliamentary, was the abuse of an occasion to insinuate that another party in this House does not want change amongst other things which have absolutely nothing to do with the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Just on that please.  Mr Rajbansi, just take your seat please.  No, take your seat, Mr Rajbansi.  I will not allow this debate to carry on in this manner.  It is a fact that Mr Rajbansi did in fact say the other people do not want change.  I am not so sure whether that actually is unparliamentary or not.  On the one hand, if that is the request and Mr Rajbansi opposes it let him say so.  Let us not get into an argument now.  Let him say so or withdraw.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I did not refer to any political parties ...

THE SPEAKER:  On a point of order.  Yes, Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  This is becoming an absolute farce.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR V A VOLKER:  And I propose that all further notices of motion be suspended for the day and that we proceed with the other part of the agenda until this matter has been referred to the Rules Committee.

THE SPEAKER:  I therefore rule that all matters be suspended until the matter is referred to the Rules Committee and we proceed with the motions of the day.  Thank you.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY
	8.1	QUESTIONS

Yes, Mr Redinger.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, would you please clarify whether the questions which were submitted last week will also be replied to, because the National Party tabled a set of questions on Wednesday last week in Pietermaritzburg and I do not see them on the Order Paper.  I just want to find out whether in fact they will be dealt with today.

THE SPEAKER:  In view of the fact that I will have to ascertain first of all, with the Secretariat why that question was not put in here.  In which case, if that be the case, I will be in a position tomorrow to furnish the hon member with a reply.  He should reserve the right that that question, if asked, should come forward.  Any further questions on this matter?  No questions.  I will therefore proceed.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, there is a question paper before us.

THE SPEAKER:  I actually asked if there were any questions and nobody came up.  Are there any questions?  If there are this is the time for them.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, there are questions before us on which we are awaiting replies.  I think Mr Redinger's question was that certain of the questions that the National Party had submitted were not put onto this Order Paper.  But we are expecting I think to deal with the question paper before us.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, in view of the fact, I cannot explain why it was not on the Order Paper, I suppose that will be for the Minister to reply.  Can that question put forward and we proceed.  The question which is referred to by the hon Mr Redinger, well let it be put and we get over it.  Who puts the question which was left out?  

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, Mr Redinger does raise a legitimate issue.  It is one which will need to be dealt with by the Secretariat.  I submit that all you can deal with is what is actually in front of you today.  And I suggest you proceed with the Order Paper and we will have to deal with Mr Redinger's problem some other way.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much for that.  That is my problem and I was taking cognisance that I do not want to prejudice the rights of Mr Redinger.  If there was any error on the part of the Secretariat to not include his question then he is not prejudiced.  If Mr Redinger accepts that, that to me closes the issue.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Just for the record because the hon Minister of Health is not here.  The hon Minister of Health has his question ready.  I in fact discussed it with him before he left and I have given Mr Redinger a copy of his reply informally.  I think the point that Mr Redinger was making, is that it should have been on the Order Paper formally but the hon Minister of Health has complied with the request for an answer.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much for that information.

MR R E REDINGER:  Mr Speaker, these questions were tabled for oral reply and therefore prefer an oral reply.

THE SPEAKER:  I wish to say that I will not infringe the rights of the hon member.  As I say, if it is by way of an error that they were not included for oral reply the hon member should not be prejudiced.  That will in fact be done notwithstanding the information put forward by the hon Whip of the ANC.  Just a minute.  Yes, Mr Premier?

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, if the question that the hon member Mr Redinger is referring to is the question put by Mrs C E Galea to the Minister of Safety and Security, I do not know about the others, but insofar as that one is concerned I am ready with the answer.  I knew about that question and I am ready to answer it even though it is not on the Order Paper.  I thought I should just clarify that.  Others I am not aware of.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Whilst on that, may I also clear this issue.  I am informed by my Secretariat that actually the reason why this important question was not put on the Order Paper, it arrived late in terms of the Rules and therefore was going to be put on this.  Your question is not being denied.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I personally handed in the questions on Wednesday afternoon in Pietermaritzburg.  Today is Thursday, that is eight days ago.  We have seven days to do it, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  May I say that in any case, the issue of the question is not being sidetracked.  I would request Mr Redinger even in front of the Premier here that actually the question will be put tomorrow, unless he has an objection.  He has a right to have the question put.  Tomorrow please.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on behalf of both the Minister of Health and the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, both the Ministers had questions from the National Party, both our Ministers from the ANC side are ready with their replies.  We can actually cut the argument short and the Ministers are prepared to actually give the replies in the House right now.  The hon Minister Zuma will do it and the hon Minister Ndebele can do it on behalf of Minister Mkhize.  They are ready with their answers.

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute please.  On a point of order, Mrs Cronje.  These people, you talk on their behalf, are in a position to say these things themselves.  I thought we were getting over this morass with the allowance of Mr Redinger for these questions to be put on tomorrow.  Nobody loses anything, please.  Nobody loses anything.  I do not quite understand why we should be actually wasting the time of the House on this matter which is not, repeat not in dispute.  They do not form part of an any res gestae.  I will call upon the Premier please and we get on with the Order Paper.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Are we at least going to deal with the questions before us?

THE SPEAKER:  Oh I see.  I did not have these questions here.

MR J H JEFFERY:  There are two questions from myself standing over and then two questions for oral reply to the Premier and two questions to Ministers for oral reply.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh yes, yes.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Can we at least deal with these.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Jeffery.  No, no, no.  In fact this is the time for questions.  I have simply missed this paper here with all apologies.  In fact I did say any questions to be put, there was none.  Will the hon member therefore put the question to the Premier please.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEAR IN THE IVORY PAGES AT THE BACK OF THE BOOK.

THE SPEAKER:  Now I am in the hands of the House.  The Premier, I am given to understand, will give his address for one and a half hours and then after that we start debating.  The point is that I do not think it is good that we should ask the Premier to give half of his address, go to lunch and then he continues.  It will destroy the impact of his address.

Why I say I am in your hands is precisely because of that.  It is now exactly 12 and if I call upon him to do so it will be half past one by the time he has completed.  Either we are prepared to go on until after half past one and then afterwards come to the debating of it or you adjourn now and start after lunch.  What is the feeling of the House?

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Sorry, Mr Speaker.  There is no debate on the Premier's address today.  The debate will follow tomorrow.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Now the Premier has assured me that he will take one and a half hours.  I suppose we can start now for an hour and persevere for half an hour after this.  We will be late for lunch.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

8.2  ADDRESS BY THE PREMIER

THE SPEAKER:  Will the hon Premier therefore proceed.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, and members of this House.  It is my singular honour once more to invite you to walk with me a distance lasting 12 months from 1996, together we have crossed rivers, climbed hills and traversed valleys.  Sometimes we have performed our duties in a manner which could impress onlookers as stylish or even boisterous.  Sometimes our performance has been painstaking amidst opposition, criticisms and discouragements.  Thanks to you colleagues, fellow parliamentarians for your support.

An occasion such as this one, challenges us to take stock of what we have done for the past 12 months.  We may look back and find ourselves wanting.  We may look back and discover that we have a list of achievements associated with us, likewise this time propels us to think about the future.  We learn to deal with our anxieties, to resolve conflicts, to achieve peace within and to believe in success.

As we reflect on the past or visualise the future, we cannot but acknowledge the trust and love of those who have received us kindly and allowed us to work with them and for them.

We will not pride ourselves of any successes that may be associated with our names.  But we praise God Almighty for the difference that our service might have made in the lives of many a young person, many a senior citizen and many a fellow being known or unknown to us.

I would like to walk with you through some of the worthwhile initiatives that have been launched by the Provincial Government and its administration.  I would like to pay tribute to the honest and sincere efforts of my colleagues in the Cabinet, the Portfolio Committees, the Director-General, departmental secretaries and all the public servants who have worked tirelessly, to improve the lot of the citizens of this Province.

These men and women have made it possible for KwaZulu-Natal to take its rightful place as the pace-setter in public sector governance.  I would now like to highlight a few of the more significant initiatives that have been launched during my three years in office as well as mention some of the activities of our departments.

As I pointed out last year, the Department of the Premier has transversal responsibilities which range from legal advice, Human Resources Management, Government Policy Matters and to Support Services to the Director-General's Office.

GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT

I wish to refer to growth and development first.

The hon members will recall that in July 1996 the KwaZulu-Natal Cabinet approved a Provincial Growth and Development Strategy for KwaZulu-Natal.  This Strategy is consistent with Central Government's macro economic strategy and with the goals of the RDP.  We all desire to build a winning economy for the country which will lead to full employment, the alleviation of poverty, a more equitable distribution of income, peace, security and stability.

The growth and development strategy is based on three propositions.

The first one is:
Jobs can be created on a sustainable basis only if the Province achieves a high rate of economic growth.

The second one is: 
A higher growth rate in turn depends on the implementation of a sound national macro economic policy.  Such a policy reduces social unrest and alleviates poverty.  It generates a high degree of confidence both from the South African as well as from the foreign investors.

The third proposition is:
The redistribution of goods and services towards meeting the needs of the majority of the population will in itself provide an impetus for economic growth through development of bulk infrastructure and mass housing, public works programmes and maintenance of the additional facilities and infrastructure.

By accepting these propositions, the strategy attempts to ensure that growth in the Province will occur in a sustainable fashion and will contribute towards an improved quality of life for all.  It also contributes to the continuous enhancement of the human, natural and physical resources of KwaZulu-Natal.

My colleague, the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism aims to exploit fully the economic opportunities presented by trade and tourism, in particular by:

1.	Improving the commercial, financial and service sectors, notably through the integrated development of ports, airports, road and rail infrastructure, the growth of exports and tourism and the development of the small and medium sized business sector.

2.	Promoting KwaZulu-Natal as the gateway Province for foreign trade and tourism, taking advantage especially of the Indian Ocean Rim initiative for the development of all forms of trade, tourism and business and sporting links.

The tourist potential of the Province is especially promising in terms of Growth and Development and these include:

-	Development of the eco-tourism potential by the creation of a Northern Zululand Biosphere which would result in an area that is two-thirds the size of Zululand Biosphere which would result in an area that is two-thirds the size of the Kruger National Park.

-	The further development of the North and South Coast for local and international markets.

-	The potential of the Drakensberg for nature based tourism (including hiking and climbing) should be promoted.

Crucial to the economic development of the Province are the following initiatives:

-	The exploitation of the full potential of the Province's harbour facilities.

-	The construction of the King Shaka Airport at La Mercy.

-	The development of the industrial and agricultural potential of the Tugela Basin.  In this regard, the words of the then Senator E R Moorcroft vis-a-vis the Tugela/Vaal Project, during the visit of our provincial Cabinet to consider the report of the Senate Select Committee on Liaison with Provinces are pertinent and I would like to quote the words of Mr Moorcroft:

	Give the available labour, the infrastructure, including the finest harbour in Africa, as well as the resources of the Province, does it not make a whole lot more sense to move the industry to where the water is, rather than to move the water to where the industry is?

I think these are great words coming from Mr Moorcroft and I am proud that we have him here in this House now.  I am proud that he is one of our new finds via the Democratic Party.

Throughout the implementation of its Growth and Development Strategy, the KwaZulu-Natal Government has set itself a goal to pay constant attention to improving the lot of the poorest communities through policies such as land-tenure reform, support for small scale operators, provision of fiscal infrastructure, and development of human resources through improved access to education and health services.

With regard to this Provincial Growth and Development Strategy for KwaZulu-Natal, which puts us ahead of other provinces in this field, I would like to pay a special tribute to my colleague, Minister Jacob Zuma and his officials for the outstanding work done in this regard.

PROGRAMME FOR GOOD GOVERNANCE

As all members of this hon House will appreciate, one of the biggest challenges of the Government-of-the-day is to bring about the transformation of the Public Service.  In this regard I am proud to say that the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration is without doubt the leader in the field with the Programme for Good Governance which was launched in 1995.  As the former Inspector General of the United States of America, Mr Sherman Funk, remarked after making a study of this Programme, I quote him:

	Your programme for Good Governance is quite ambitious, but it appears to be realistic in structure and expectations.  Certainly, its emphasis upon working-level acceptance and participation is right on target.  Many similar programmes have floundered because their "top-down" approach failed to involve people in the trenches.  Thus, your approach is on the right track and I wish it well and also wish you well.

In order to ensure that all public servants, on all levels, participate actively in the change management process, a workshop methodology has been developed and customised especially for our particular needs.  A programme has been embarked upon to involve as many public servants as possible in workshops where participative management is promoted.  It is generally found that the participants become enthusiastic about finding solutions to the barriers preventing effective service delivery.  I am pleased to report that this process is having a positive influence in the attitudes of public servants and that good progress is being made in this area.

As far as attitudes are concerned, it is vitally important that a common and sound work ethic be fostered within the Administration.  If this could be achieved, it would be unnecessary to have an Anti-Fraud and Corruption Campaign and for this reason steps have been taken to instill such a work ethic within all Government officials.  This can be seen as a pro-active approach to combating fraud and corruption rather than a reactive approach.  To this end a watershed workshop was held between Management and Organised Labour where a basic set of work ethics was agreed to.  To my knowledge, this is the first such a workshop to be held in the Public Service and is a good example of what can be achieved through working together constructively.  The challenge is now to jointly find ways and means of getting all employees to conduct themselves in accordance with these work ethics.

I am also proud to announce to this House that the Cabinet has recently given in principle approval to the first draft of a KwaZulu-Natal Government Performance Bill.  This is a concrete deliverable from the Programme for Good Governance.  This is not only a first in Africa, but in fact only a handful of countries in the developed world have introduced such legislation.

Once enacted this Bill will require all departments to report, in quantifiable terms, to this Legislature the progress that has been made in their various fields of responsibility.  Such reporting will be in the form of key performance areas for the various line functions where the year's achievement will be compared to a predetermined target and also to previous years' achievements.  Reasons will have to be furnished for non-achievement of goals.  The hon members of the House can imagine the positive influence that such legislation is going to have on the level of service delivery and public accountability in general.  For the first time John Citizen will be able to see exactly what has been accomplished with his hard earned money.

Grants-in-aid for development projects are also more likely to gravitate towards this Province in preference to other areas because of the tangible results which will, for the first time, be reported on in a quantifiable and transparent manner.  This in turn will contribute to investor confidence and make the Province economically attractive and competitive both in local and global terms.

In preparation for the implementation of this legislation all departments have identified key performance areas in respect of their respective line functions and a set of macro provincial performance indicators are currently also under consideration.

I feel confident that this KwaZulu-Natal Government Performance Bill is in future going to form the core of Good Governance in this Province, because when you measure performance it invariably improves.  In this way we will set in motion a process of significantly improving on the current level of service delivery to the community we serve.

Good Governance is also about the transfer of skills and the empowerment of Government officials in such a way that we save on exorbitant consultancy fees by enabling our officials to execute certain specialised functions effectively, without having to buy-in services.  To this end we have embarked upon numerous training courses and monitoring programmes which will result in better utilisation of staff and a saving of expenses.

Mr Speaker, I could say much more about our Programme for Good Governance, but I am sure that the hon members can deduce that meaningful progress is being made and that we can be proud of the achievements in this field.

For this I would like to convey my sincere appreciation to the Director-General, Professor Otty Nxumalo and the officials who have assisted in this process.  

ANTI-FRAUD AND CORRUPTION CAMPAIGN

Earlier on, I said good work attitudes could make it unnecessary to mount campaigns against corruption.  Unfortunately at present our circumstances compel us to wage war against fraud and corruption.

Corruption, theft and bribery are unfortunately some of the words currently associated with our society, not just with the Provincial Government of KwaZulu-Natal, but countrywide in both Government and private sectors.  We are beset with more fraud cases and ever higher amounts that are involved.  More and more the media reports on cases of crime syndicates, ghost employees, overpayment to suppliers, abuse of Government vehicles, misappropriation of funds and bribery.

As I mentioned at our Anti-Fraud and Corruption Launch in January, I am deeply concerned about these widespread practices of dishonesty.  As Premier of this Province and as Minister of Safety and Security it has been my personal responsibility to initiate the necessary measures to combat fraud and corruption.  For the sake of the people of this Province, I have been determined to put a stop on the drain of our resources.

As I pointed out on that occasion, my colleagues and I are fully committed to a clean Administration and a corruption-free Province in accordance with the values and principles of the Province for Good Governance.  We are determined to eradicate fraudulent activities both in the public service and in the private sector.

I have therefore made it absolutely clear that public officials, in all spheres of Provincial Government business, who are guilty of fraud and corruption, irrespective of the magnitude will receive no mercy.  Furthermore, if we have reasonable grounds to suspect that any organisation, individual, provider of services or consultant has endeavoured in any way to defraud the Government, steps will be taken to expose them.  Such practices could lead to the black-listing of companies and service providers irrespective of pending investigations or charges.  We have already begun to circulate internally a list of companies that have defrauded our Government.  The aim is to avoid such companies.

For this reason my Cabinet and I have launched the Provincial Anti-corruption and Fraud Campaign and we have publicly committed ourselves to the eradication of this evil.  This campaign is a joint initiative between various Provincial Government bodies and the business sector.  The objectives of the campaign are:

Firstly:		To join hands with the private sector and the citizens of KwaZulu-Natal to combat corruption and fraud in an integrated and co-ordinated effort.

Secondly:	To encourage our citizens to make use of the new avenues available to report corruption and fraudulent activities.

Thirdly:		To monitor overall progress made in the campaign against corruption by means of a Monitoring Committee.

Several Provincial departments, in conjunction with the South African Police Services Fraud and Corruption Unit, have already initiated anti-corruption initiatives and numerous investigations are currently underway.  The Department of Education has started a campaign to identify ghost employees and eliminate the use of false certificates and overpayments.  The Department of Transport has deployed a special force of traffic policemen to crack down on the abuse of Government vehicles.  In this regard the Cabinet has also resolved that all departments must take special steps to manage their vehicle fleets more effectively.  The Department of Health has launched investigations into irregularities at various Provincial Hospitals.  The Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development was the driving force behind the initiation of the Police Services' Fraud and Corruption Unit.  The Department of Finance recently conducted a workshop specifically aimed at training the relevant officers in all departments in methods of combating fraud.

I am pleased to report, and I am sure that the hon members will be pleased to hear that the corruption "hot-line" is already yielding fruits and many dockets have been opened for cases which would otherwise never have been exposed.  I am confident that this campaign is going to be a success and that it is going to go a long way in reducing the current levels of corruption.

	The toll-free number 0800313233 has been approved and became fully operational on Wednesday, 22 January 1997.

Since the installation of the toll-free number there has already been 12 513 calls that have been received.  219 of these calls were followed up.  Calls continue to be made and are continually screened for further follow-up.  Of the calls that were followed up 34 had direct bearing on the Anti-Corruption Unit and 134 were referred to the Commercial Crime Unit while the remainder were referred to other Stations and Units.

	In less than a month the quick response for members on standby duties has already resulted in the following successes:  

	Corruption :		39 arrests in 28 cases;
	Theft:			 8 arrests in  6 cases;
	Fraud:			 4 arrests in  6 cases;
	Unlawful possession 
	     of firearms:		 1 arrest in  1 case.

In this regard I must not only thank my colleagues and officials for their commitment to this cause, but I want to also pay special tribute to the Department of the Premier, the Provincial Auditor, the Attorney-General of KwaZulu-Natal, the South African Police Services and the business sector.  I thank these individuals and institutions for joining forces with us in forming a partnership to combat fraud and corruption.

Since I am dealing with matters of a criminal nature, it is opportune for me to provide some overview of the crime situation.

The crime situation during 1996 appears to have generally stabilised when compared to previous years.  For the period January to December 1996 there has been no major increase of crime on a monthly basis, which supports the statement that criminality has reached a plateau.

It can be seen from the table that between the years 1995 and 1996 there are significant decreases in the number of reported cases concerning the priority crimes this Province has focused on.  Of special significance is the fact that Murder has shown a decrease of 8,45%.  Attempted Murder a decrease of 14,06%.  Armed Robbery a decrease of 3,10%.  Robbery a decrease of 8,52%.  Theft of Motor Vehicles a decrease of 7,15%, and Theft out of Motor Vehicles a decrease of 7,68%.

A matter of concern is that 64 massacres took place in 1996.  These massacres resulted in the death of 230 people.  In 1995 only 21 massacres occurred.  An interesting factor to note is that political motivation underlying massacres shows a decline, constituting 23,8% in the 90 deaths caused in 1995 while in 1996 it only constituted 12%.

Specialised units have been established to deal specifically with the prioritised crimes.  These units would include four National Investigation task units, dealing exclusively with political massacres.  A Serious Violent Crime component dealing with major murder and robbery cases, child abuse, illegal firearms, syndicate crimes, taxi violence and vehicle hijacking, and special commercial crime units to deal with Government fraud, pension scams and serious white collar offences.  As reported above, an Anti-Corruption unit has also been established to combat corruption with the SAPS and to this end a special toll-free number has been introduced to encourage members and the public to supply information anonymously to this unit regarding any suspected corruptive activities by police personnel.

In general, the Department of Safety and Security is proud to say that organisationally, the process of rationalisation and amalgamation is complete.  The sword and shield provincial KwaZulu-Natal Police Plan is also in the process of evaluation with many successes being recorded in its implementation.  KwaZulu-Natal has shown a marked decrease in prioritised crimes which has largely to do with the success story of a policing partnership with the community and the business sector.  This has formed a solid foundation for us to focus on.

It is significant to note that during the period 1 January 1996 to 31 December 1996, KwaZulu-Natal featured above the RSA average for crimes per 100 000 of the population in only three out of 15 specific crimes.  I hope people can take note of that.  During the period 1 January 1996 to 31 December 1996, KwaZulu-Natal featured above the RSA average for crimes per 100 000 of the population in only three of 15 specific crimes.  There is a table that I could have included here which can be seen which unfortunately I did not include here, which will depict what I am talking about.  In the case of all property related crimes and also in crimes such as rape and assault, this Province is below the RSA average.  Unfortunately, in the case of murder we are the fourth ranked province, attempted murder ranked third and robbery with aggravating circumstances we are ranked second and in these cases all above the RSA average.  This is unfortunate but that is reality.

The past year shows significant progress being made in regularising the systems inherited from the five former Departments of Education.  The new KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education and Culture, came into being on 1 April 1996.  The amalgamation process will ensure the equitable provision of schooling to all pupils and has been facilitated by legislation which has recently been enacted - both at national level in the form of the South African School Act and at provincial level in the form of the School Education Act, the Technical Colleges Act and the Colleges of Education Act.

The structure of the Department is taking shape with the appointment of two Deputy Directors-General and nine Chief Directors, while interviews are currently being held for the various other senior and middle management posts which have yet to be filled.

Accommodation of pupils have been catered for in a building programme which has seen the construction of 146 new schools in the Province in the last year.  The new multi-million Rand colleges of education and high schools at Port Shepstone and Ulundi respectively have also been commissioned.

Despite the problems and the disruptions experienced during the first common senior certificate examination written at the end of 1996, the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education's pass rate was higher than that of several other provinces and bears testimony to the fact that progress is being made in the provision of quality education in the Province.

The Department of Agriculture had developed a framework plan to best serve the agricultural sector within the Regional Council areas.  This plan will entail the restructuring of the Department's Regional Services, into seven regions corresponding to the demarcated Regional Councils.  These regions will be provided with effective posts and funds taking into account the down-sizing exercises of the Public Service and the budget allocation for agricultural development.  The Department will also be restructuring its Head Office into a small, policy formulation, management support and overall control component.  The intention is to make the regions as autonomous and accountable as possible while operating within their delegated powers.

The Department will have in place an ongoing programme to identify areas and communities within the Regional Council areas which are not effectively served by the Department and take measures to improve this service.  The Department will also be finding new means in assessing the agricultural research needs of the farmers within each Regional Council area and fulfilling these needs to the best of their capabilities.

Turning briefly to other departments I which to highlight some areas.

The Department of Works successfully executed a building programme of the clinics for Reconstruction and Development Programmes for the Department of Health.  The Department of Health was allocated funds by the National Health Department as an RDP and similar allocations were made to other Provincial Health Departments.

Initially the Department of Works was allocated R141m to erect 113 clinics.  The Department of Works added an additional R40m to total R181m and this resulted in a total of 143 clinics, that is 25 additional clinics for the Province.  To date 31 clinics have been completed and 24 clinics are about 65% complete.  By planning its programme the Department is succeeding in service delivery.

In conclusion, Raubenheimer and Partners Incorporated, the Project Managers of the National Government congratulated the Department on this achievement.

The short term goals, which were set by the Department of Finance in order to achieve the various objectives of the Province have been realised.  These include:

-	The completion of the amalgamation and rationalisation of the former KwaZulu Department of Finance and the Finance Branch of the former Natal Provincial Administration.

-	The rationalisation of the budget into a single budget for the entire region.

-	The rationalisation of the financial systems into a decentralised and computerised financial system serving all provincial departments throughout the entire region.

-	The rationalisation of the former salary systems into a single decentralised and computerised salary system through which the salaries administration of approximately 180 000 employees of the region is achieved.

-	The development of a single loss control system to serve the needs of all provincial departments with effect from the 1996/1997 financial year.

-	The closing of all books and bank accounts of the former administrations and the transfer of the information and balances to the new provincial system.

The Department of Transport has several notable achievements.

In the field of taxi transport, KwaZulu-Natal is acknowledged as the nation's leader in innovative policy - setting in place mechanisms to stabilise and uplift the previously disorganised taxi industry in order to provide commuters with access to safe, efficient and economic public transport.  In the area of road safety, KwaZulu-Natal continues to excel with project Victoria -partial implementation of this programme resulting in KwaZulu-Natal having the lowest accident rate in SA over the December holidays.  A business plan to elicit funding for this project has now been completed.  The Department's community access roads programme also continues to make good progress with the completion of a Needs Study into the rural roads backlog, 22 out of 28 Rural Road Transport Forums have now been established and through these, communities can participate in decision making regarding road development in their areas.

We are worried, of course, that there are still many problems coming out of the taxi industry.  We have from time to time reports that keep coming up complaining about what is happening within the taxi industry.  Even today as I stand here I know that we have got some visitors that are due to report to me later on in the day about the problems that they are meeting in their area with regard to the taxi industry.  One would hope that there would be some fairness going on among the taxi people themselves.

PEACE INITIATIVES

Inaugural meeting of the Provincial Peace Committee was opened by myself for Safety and Security on 18 June 1996 with the announcements of the members and the election of the Reverend Daniel Ngubane as Chairperson.

The committee consists of representatives from the Minister's office, of representatives of all political parties, organised business and labour, religious organisations, traditional leaders, the South African National Defence Force.

The Provincial Peace Committee with sub-regional offices based throughout the Province has endeavoured to assist conflicting communities to reconcile their differences and bring previously warring political leaders together for the benefit of the entire community.

The South African Police Service has been involved in and assisted in programmes which are designed to achieve the mission of the committee which is to strive to promote peace and stability by means of peace-keeping, peace-making and peace-building to create a spirit of tolerance and understanding amongst all its people.

This sound working relationship with the committee has contributed to the success of projects such as the Peace Day activities on 1 September 1996 at Curries Fountain where the theme of Community Policing was promoted through static displays and activities intermixed with cultural displays of different communities.

The committee contributed in ensuring that the Local Government Elections proceeded peacefully and in the decline in the number of political killings.

The Peace Committee undertook training for peace monitors in order to help during the Local Government Elections.  As many as 500 monitors were trained throughout the Province.  The following were modules that were covered:

-	Monitoring;
-	Observing;
-	Mediation;
-	Conflict resolution;
-	Facilitation;
-	Negotiation;
-	Radio communication.


The Peace Committee plans to have the following projects in 1997:

-	Youth Development Training;
-	Leadership Skills;
-	Women Empowerment Projects;
-	Entrepreneur Skills Training;
-	Conflict Management Skills;
-	Integrated Development Facilitation;
-	Displacees Programmes;
-	Crime Campaigns.

Let us now turn our attention to the Department of Local Government and Housing.

HOUSING

I am happy to report that projects totalling just on 100 000 subsidies to a value of just less than R1 billion have been approved and that 1997 should see real meaningful delivery.  Major obstacles to delivery such as the effects of the Ingonyama Trust Act in former partnerships is also making a major contribution to progress, as will the accreditation of major Local Authorities so enabling them to become the primary administrators of the housing process.  A disturbing trend that is presently being investigated is the decrease in the applications being received from communities and developers for the approval and financing of projects. Should this trend continue then the public sector will have to get involved directly as initiators and developers of housing projects.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT

It is now eight months since the Local Government Elections in June 1996.  This period has largely seen new Councils and their Executives becoming accustomed and familiar with their powers, duties, functions and responsibilities.

The major issue that faces Local Government in the coming year is how to balance ambitious expectations with a limited budget.  Local Councils are already beginning the 1997/1998 budgetary process and we will have to apply prudent and conservative financial planning in order to ensure the viability and sustainability of this very important level of Government.  Attention is also being given to the implications and effects of the new Constitution on the role of the Province in the administration and control of Local Government, particularly when matters of financial irresponsibility and unlawful decision making become the issue of the day.  The new Constitution makes provision for exclusive national, concurrent national and provincial, and exclusive provincial competencies in regard to Local Government and this presents a veritable minefield which must be carefully navigated by my Ministry of Local Government.

SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT

SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT

THE FLAGSHIP PROGRAMME focused on unemployed women with children under five has been finalised to Business Plan stage.  Approval is now merely awaited from the National Ministry before the two designated pilot projects can commence.  In developmental terms there is a great expectation of this programme.

THE INTER-MINISTERIAL COMMITTEE on Youth in Conflict with the Law has finalised its operations and we are now in the process of implementing the recommendations.  Much progress has been made with the establishment of two Secure Care facilities and a number of preventive programmes have been put in place.

SOCIAL PENSIONS

THE TRANSVERSAL SYSTEM OF SOCPEN 5, which has been long awaited, came on stream in December 1996.  This system will eradicate many of our past difficulties in respect of pensions as soon as the initial teething problems are cleared up.  In the process approximately 7 000 fictitious cases have already been removed from the system.

FRAUD AND CORRUPTION, as you are aware, is at last being rapidly addressed, with numerous significant arrests and some valuable sentencing taking place.  The cumulative effect of the escalating successful investigation and the increased efficiency of the Transversal System cannot be overemphasised.

HEALTH

The Department of Health continues to broaden its service to an ever increasing number of our citizens.  Clinics, hospitals and other services in this Province are meeting demand that is unprecedented in the history of KwaZulu-Natal.

Development projects are well on track and by the end of 1997, 145 new or upgraded clinic projects will have been completed.  Included in this figure is the mobile clinic project which now has 122 mobile units in the field.  Primary health care is being delivered free on a scale never matched in the past.  During the course of this year the Department will commission the Mahatma Gandhi Hospital at Phoenix and the construction of the Durban Academic Hospital is on schedule for delivery to the Department in 1999.  The Commission of Inquiry into Health has uncovered long established corruption and a major crackdown can be expected soon.  An anti-corruption task force that includes an advocate and a member of the South African Police Services has been established in the Department and investigations are progressing well.

TRADITIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS

The Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs has also given me full support during the past year.  His Department has been instrumental in arranging a number of important meetings with Amakhosi and made a significant contribution to the successful arrangements for the meeting of the President with all Amakhosi which took place on 15 March 1996.  The Department also supported me in delicate negotiations with the relevant Central Government Minister in the context of the amendment of the Ingonyama Trust Act.  I cannot speak too highly of the input made by the Department to what I believe was a true example of an exercise in co-operative Government.  On the environmental side, the Department, working with a team of environmentalists from the private sector, was complimented by the relevant MINMEC on the KwaZulu-Natal contribution to the CONNEP process.  In the field of nature conservation, a draft Bill which will lead to the amalgamation of the Natal Parks Board staff compliment with the staff of the KwaZulu Department of Nature Conservation has been prepared.  The Zulu translation was, I understand, completed last week.  It will now be possible for this hon Parliament to deal with this piece of legislation and I am sure that the Portfolio Committee, with the support of the Department, will hold wide consultations.

There comes a time when we have to go to the mountain top.  At the beginning of this speech I talked about reflections, crossing rivers and traversing valleys.

In the course of the person's sojourn in this world, there comes a time when one has to go to the mountain top to check if one's vision is realistic to the horizon.  Sometimes the horizon is clear enough to encourage him or her to press on.  Sometimes the vision is blurred and there is doubt if his or her course of action should not be re-directed.

I wish to share with this House that I have been to the mountain top and I have seen a clear horizon.  I am not ashamed to confess my conviction.  We are on the right track.  Our right track has beacons of collective effort, mutual support, peaceful co-existence and common vision of a viable Province that prides itself of a high quality of life.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER:  I have been to the mountain top and have caught a glimpse into how far we can go if we commit ourselves truly and fully to serving humanity.  I am grateful for the opportunity this House, and many others, gave to me to serve.

For the good times I have had, 
I am grateful - you made it happen.
For the hard times I have had, 
I am grateful - you helped me carry the load.
For the challenging times I have had,
I am grateful - you urged me on.
For the dreams I shared with you, 
you helped me hold fast to those that could 
materialise and shelve those that had no prospect.

To you I am grateful.
For the visions I assembled and whispered to you,
you helped me pursue the possible and suspend the illusive.

To you I am grateful.
For hopes of peace I cherished and strove 
for, you walked bravely and steadfastly with me
you helped me weather storms 
and we collectively succeeded 
to rekindle love for one another.

To you I am grateful.
Sweet memories I take with me,
a wealth of wisdom and wit will forever resound.

Mr Speaker, sir, it is now my treasured honour to thank you dearly, and to bid this House and the Province farewell.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Premier and the House, we have arrived at the conclusion of the Premier's address and we have also arrived at the end of this item.  My understanding is we have to now adjourn for lunch until 2 o'clock.  Thank you, Mr Premier, for the report.  The House stands adjourned till 2 o'clock.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 12:58
	RESUMED AT 14:14

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  As an honourable thing to do, I will, on behalf of the Speaker, apologise to those members who respected the ringing of the bells and who reported to the chamber on time.  The Speaker and myself were a little bit confined to some arrangements beyond our control.  We hope it will not happen again.

When we adjourned we were at 8.2 where we had the Premier's address.  We are obviously now going on to 8.3.

8.3	ADJUSTMENTS ESTIMATE BILL, 1997

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I call upon the Minister concerned, the Minister of Finance to please address the House.

DR B S NGUBANE: (Minister of Finance, Auxiliary Affairs, Racing and Wagering):  Mr Speaker, hon members of the House, on 7 May 1996, the estimated revenue and expenditure for the year 1996/1997 for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal were presented to this House.  It is again my pleasure to stand before this hon House and present before you the Adjustment Estimates for the year ending 31 March 1997.

Today marks the day on which we have to assess in earnest our financial performance during the financial year that we are now concluding.  The best way of doing that is perhaps to remind ourselves of the commitments we made when we adopted the budget that we seek this hon House to adjust.

In concluding the presentation of the original budget the former Minister of Finance of KwaZulu-Natal, Mr S J Mhlungu made the following plea.  I quote:

	It behoves us all to reflect upon the very real implications which this Budget holds for the man-in-the-street.  It is all very well talking about fiscal and financial issues, yet the Department of Finance is only too well aware that the Government's Budget has direct financial effects on the lifestyles and hopes of all our citizens.  Taxes, the provision of basic services, the standards of health, education and security, the provision of housing and the growth of the economy are all inextricably linked to the numbers contained in this very Budget.

	We must never forget that our responsibilities rest with the enhancement of the way of life of all our citizens in KwaZulu-Natal and, in implementing this Budget, I urge my colleagues in Government to remember this foremost in their minds.

It is clear that in that presentation, our determination to utilise the available resources in the most effective manner possible and our determination to strive to deliver meaningful benefits to the broadest community in KwaZulu-Natal was strongly emphasised.

We therefore need to pause now as Ministers and Heads of Departments and as hon members and ask ourselves whether in the discharge of our responsibilities whether we upheld that which we committed ourselves to.  Can we really stand up and say that in the discharge of our diverse responsibilities there was marginal improvement in the quality of life of the people we serve?  If we can answer these questions all in the positive, then I believe that we can live with our consciences in the joy that we are making a difference.  As politicians and political parties we can be confident that we will stand the test of time if we are positive in our responses.

BUDGETING IN ACCORDANCE WITH AVAILABLE CAPACITY

A Government budget is defined as a financial plan in the hands of politicians and administrators aimed at ensuring that political and administrative policies are achievable within a given period of time, normally, a year.  In preparing that plan, it is necessary that certain factors are considered.  Amongst these is the determination of priorities for the period, assessment of the capacity to deliver on those priorities and implementation mechanisms.

Departments are constantly being asked to formulate their budgets from a zero base.  This would enable them to concentrate on those areas of Government that are of priority to those Departments and to the Province as a whole.  It does seem to us in Finance that Departments are losing sight of the capacity they need in order to provide relevant services.  As a result of this, funds budgeted are not utilised and are being rolled over year after year.

The tragedy of this practice is that these funds could be effectively utilised in providing other services, but instead are locked up in projects that are not delivered in the year on which they are placed on Budgets.

I have as a consequence of this bad practice instructed the Treasury to take a very hard line on those departments who request funds to be rolled over to ensuing financial years.  Only in exceptional circumstances will funds be rolled over, and provided that funds requested are for capital works.  Funds for recurring expenditure will not be rolled-over.  It must be emphasised that even on capital works funds, convincing reasons as to why that amount of money must not be taken away must be furnished.

PERFORMANCE MEASUREMENT

We have defined a Budget in the discussion as a plan and I must say I am very happy with the Performance Measurement Bill that the Premier is bringing before this House because we fit in exactly in terms of our own performance measurement intentions.

As we get to the end of the period for which our plan was drawn, we need to assess the extent to which we have complied with the plan.  A plan is also about targeting, that is setting targets.  When one sets a target that target must be both realistic and achievable.  I believe that the set target was realistic and achievable in our year end budgeting review.  I am, however, not going to make any hard judgments on the extent to which the targets were achieved.  I strongly believe that we still have the capacity to maximise our efficiency which will result in maximised efficiency gains for the Government of KwaZulu-Natal.

The time has come, I believe, for us in Government to move towards the concept of bench-marking.  Bench-marking in its primary sense is an efficiency measurement technique for organisations such as Government Departments to use between and within themselves to improve their own efficiency.  Bench-marking is a technique which involves identifying how key activities are currently carried out and comparing these with best practice elsewhere in order to improve performance and delivery.  Of course bench-marking against international standards is always the best form of measurement.

This Province is a large organisation which boasts a large quantity of assets and also one of the largest budgets in the country.  We should therefore, go beyond the identification of bench-marks.  We should rather analyse the processes, through searching for more efficient and effective ways of service delivery and meeting the needs of the people of this Province.

Emanating from the concept of bench-marking, are processes such as the right size of an institution to perform a service efficiently and effectively.  More attention is given to costs which are incidental to the core of that function.  Those costs include administrative costs.  These costs need to be monitored very closely.  It can be tempting, especially if administrative costs are small in relation to programme costs, to pay little attention to achieving the right level of administrative costs.

Any manager who has the responsibility of controlling the budget at whatever level will have failed if he or she does not keep a vigilant eye on administrative costs.  Incidentally, most of our vehicle running costs are charged to administration.  One will have an idea if you begin to think of the total fleet of the Province.  If costs associated with this item are not monitored, the expenditure can easily triple through misuse.

The same goes for telephone accounts and stationery.  Once we begin to cost these items out in each of our organisations as is the practice with consumable stores in any private business, we will all have a sense of what this entails in terms of expenditure in the entire Province.  Administrative expenditure is the expenditure that contributes to the smooth running of our organisations thus contributing indirectly to service delivery.  It is therefore, necessary to keep a prudent balance between this type of expenditure and core functions of Government.

At this stage I wish to look at each Vote, stating the overall increase or decrease and to mention the significant movements attributable to these increases or decreases.

1.	THE DEPARTMENT OF THE PREMIER

	This Department reflects an overall increase of R36,45m due to the following significant movements:

	-	A once-off increase of R33m for the Aviation services, which has been committed from surplus funds in the 1995/1996 financial year for capital purchase costs.  This was a direct result of the current contract reaching its expiry date during the current financial year.  The department conducted a number of studies which resulted in a set of options for a more efficient system being introduced.  An option was chosen whereby the Province would become a partner in the contract.  This option would minimise running costs in the medium to long term, with the potential of cost recovery.
	-	An increase of R0,310m as a result of function shifts between the Provincial departments such as the Provisioning function from the Department of Finance and Auxiliary Services.
	-	An increase of R1,5m as a result of function shifts from the Department of State Expenditure in respect of consultant fees for the implementation of the PERSAL system in the Province.
	-	An increase of R0,750m for the Anti-Corruption Campaign, initiated as part of the Good Governance Programme.

2.	PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT

	Provincial Parliament reflects an increase of R0,079m to fund the acquisition of a vehicle which was ordered but not delivered in the 1995/1996 financial year.  This amount represents funds carried over from the previous financial year.

3.	THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

	This Department reflects an increase of R88,8m due to the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R63m for roll-overs from the previous financial year, the major portion being R45,8m for Drought Relief and R10m for expenditure committed in the 1995/1996 financial year, but which could not be finalised before the expiration of the financial year.
	-	An increase of R19,7m for the flood damage assistance from the National Department of Agriculture.  These funds were voted for the 1995/1996 financial year for drought relief and the unspent funds are being utilised for flood damage in the current financial year.
	-	An increase of R5,4m representing funds which were suspended from the National Department for utilisation in development assistance to small scale farming.

4.	THE DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS AND TOURISM

	This Department reflects an increase of R41,8m due to the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R38m to assist the KwaZulu Transport Services in their financial crises in order to avoid disastrous consequences for the provincial economy.
	-	An increase of R2,3m to co-fund the activities associated with advertising the Province which are rendered by the KwaZulu Marketing Initiative, the (KMI).  The amount is derived from savings in the previous financial year.  Cabinet decided that the activities of the KMI be funded up to that limit.
	-	An increase of R1,2m to fund the Regional Economic Forum, which Cabinet endorsed in principle vide Cabinet Resolution 545, dated 8 November 1995.  The REF is seen to be an important advisory and consultative body to the Government of KwaZulu-Natal.  To a large extent then funding of this organisation is justified.

5.	THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE

	This Department reflects an increase of R80,1m due to the following significant movements:

	-	A decrease of R208,3m as a result of movements between the Department of Works and the Department of Education and Culture in respect of capital projects that were being undertaken on behalf of the Department of Education.
	-	An increase of R86,8m representing "roll-overs" received from the National Department of Education, mainly for the purpose of funding the Culture of Learning, Early Childhood Development and RDP education projects in the Province.
	-	An increase of R200m emanating from a resolution by the Provincial Budget Council, to assist with the anticipated shortfall within the Department.

6.	THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE AND AUXILIARY SERVICES

	This Department reflects an increase of R6,5m represented by the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R7,8m for funds rolled over pertaining to the implementation of the Provisioning Administration System, information technology and the installation of the financial management system infrastructure.
	-	A decrease of R1,2m to various departments in respect of the introduction of PERSAL and the implementation of a rationalised Pension Fund.

7.	THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH

	This Department reflects an overall increase of R416,9m due to the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R226,8m representing funds that were rolled over by the National Department of Health for functions devolved to the Province.
	-	An increase of R44,8m attributable to funds rolled over for committed expenditure as at the end of the 1995/1996 financial year.  This expenditure relates mainly to capital projects.
	-	An increase of R43,8m representing funds that were transferred from the National Department of Health in respect of the maintenance backlog with respect to Health Facilities.
	-	An increase of R100m allocated vide a resolution by the Provincial Budget Council, to assist with anticipated shortfall in Provincial, General and Community Hospitals.

8.	THE DEPARTMENT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING

	This Department reflects an overall increase of R75,9m represented by the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R52,4m received from National Government to fund the delayed Local Government Elections in the Province.
	-	An increase of R22m to fund contractually committed projects that were initiated late in the previous financial year and could not be completed timeously, eg hostel upgrading, provision of electricity, maintenance and repairs of roads as well as upgrading and provision of waterworks to various communities.

9.	THE SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICES

	This Department reflects an overall increase of R2,7m represented by the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R3m which was earmarked for funding of the Community Police Forums.  This amount was not utilised in the 1995/1996 financial year and was therefore rolled over to the current financial year for the same purpose.
	-	A decrease of R0,3m which was transferred to the Department of the Premier to assist with the financing of the Anti-Corruption Campaign.

10.	PROVINCIAL SERVICE COMMISSION

	The Public Service Commission reflects an increase of R1 023,8m represented by the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R5,3m transferred from the National Public Service Commission to be utilised for human resources development within the Province.
	-	An increase of R1 023,3m for the improvement to conditions of service in respect of all Votes, and which is reflected here for appropriation purposes only.
	-	A decrease of R2,8m as a result of a suspension of funds by Treasury to be surrendered to the Provincial Exchequer Account.  This amount is a savings on the vote of the PSC as a result of vacant posts not being filled.

11.	THE DEPARTMENT OF TRADITIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS

	This Department reflects an overall increase of R17,8m due to the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R7,1m in respect of transfer payments to tribal authorities.  These funds are to be utilised for building and maintaining tribal courts and subsidising the salaries of tribal secretaries.
	-	An increase of R2,4m for the Environment function which was as a result of the inadequate provision in the original estimates.  Parliament had expressed during the debate on the original estimates, its concern over the amount that was provided.  An effort was then made to find some savings to make up for the deficiency.
	-	An increase of R4,9m attributable to a roll-over of funds pertaining to capital projects budgeted for in the 1995/1996 financial year which was not utilised.

12.	THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

	This Department reflects an overall increase of R41,9m represented by the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R2,9m from Vote 14 - Works in respect of cabling for the computer network.
	-	An increase of R2m suspended from National South African Police Services to cater for personnel rendering a traffic control function in the former KwaZulu service.  These personnel were transferred to the KZN Road Traffic Inspectorate with effect from August 1996.
	-	A decrease of R5,5m transferred to the National Department of Transport to fund the Overloading Control Funding Programme.  This programme is going to be controlled at national level on behalf of the nine provinces, each of whom has had to contribute a specified amount towards the programme.
	-	An increase of R40m to fund the damage caused to the road network in KwaZulu-Natal during the floods in December 1995 and January 1996.

13.	THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE

	This Department reflects an overall increase of R102,1m represented by the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R1,9m to fund the salaries of social workers in the voluntary welfare sector, resulting from the improvement of salary benefits to these social workers effective from 1 July 1996.
	-	An increase of R0,3m from Welfare to cater for social work posts at National Councils and the delivering of services at a Provincial level.
	-	An increase of R100m, allocated by the Provincial Budget Council to assist with the anticipated shortfall in grants.  This anticipated shortfall is a result of an increase in the number of beneficiaries and represents a statutory obligation.

14.	THE DEPARTMENT OF WORKS

	This Department reflects an overall increase of R352,6m due to the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R208,3m in respect of funds transferred from the Department of Education and Culture for capital works projects.  This is a result of ongoing negotiations between the departments which were finalised later on in the financial year.
	-	An increase of R146,8m attributable to a roll-over of funds which were committed to capital projects but were unspent at the close of the previous financial year.
	-	A decrease of R2,9m transferred to the Department of Transport to meet the costs of the computer network cabling.

15.	PROMOTING THE RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME

	This Department reflects an overall increase of R130m represented by the following significant movements:

	-	An increase of R100m transferred from the Department of State Expenditure to fund the Peace Initiative as a result of the request made by the Director-General of this Province in an effort to restore peace.
	-	An increase of R30m representing funds rolled over for projects that were commenced in 1995/1996, to be completed during the current financial year.

	SOURCE OF FUNDING

	A total amount of R1 597,7m was received from the National Exchequer while an amount of R820,1m was funded from savings emanating from the previous financial year.

These are the changes that have occurred during the fiscal year under review which led to the requirement of an additional R2 417,8m.

I must pause here to thank my Cabinet colleagues for the effort they have put towards remaining within the original allocated budget.  I am acutely aware of the difficult task they face in ensuring that delivery on the expectations of the populace takes place within tight fiscal constraints.  I thank them sincerely and enlist their support in future years in ensuring that we make meaningful contributions to the people of this Province.  This we will do through applying limited resources to services that are expected of a Government.  Those services must be of high quality, achieved in the most economic way and delivered as efficiently as possible.

Mr Speaker, and hon members, may I table at this stage the Adjustments Estimate Bill of 1997 and the Adjustments Estimate Book in terms of section 4(5)(b) of the KwaZulu-Natal Exchequer Act, Act No 1 of 1994 read with Rule 132(a) of the Standing Rules of the Provincial Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal.

I must say finally, it is a sad occasion that I did not have a chance to deliver my first full budget for the Province under the premiership of Dr Mdlalose.  Nevertheless he leaves us a rich legacy, a proud tradition of Good Governance.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That is the Bill that has been tabled.  I now take the opportunity to refer the Bill to the Finance Committee which shall deal with it and report back to the House.  With that gone, that item is now finalised.

8.4	GAMBLING AMENDMENT BILL, 1997.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  We have a problem with the Rules.  Last Friday I faxed through an amendment, in a spirit of co-operation and suggested that my amendment be published yesterday so that we could deal with it.  In terms of the Rules, you have no option but not to allow this debate and commit that amendment to the relevant Portfolio Committee.

I do not want to be accused of delaying the passage of the Bill.  It is a non-controversial Bill, and in the light of the discussion I had with the Premier before coming in I am prepared to withdraw my amendments because they are very reasonable in the light of what is contained in the Act.

So there is a spirit of co-operation from both sides and in order to enable us to deal with this Bill I am prepared to withdraw my amendment and we can have a discussion with the incoming Minister in charge of this particular legislation so that I could bring it back at a later date.  If that is acceptable then I am prepared to withdraw it.

AN HON MEMBER:  You have no choice but to withdraw.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  I notice that my self-appointed spokesperson says he has no alternative because if I dig in my heels then this debate stops.  So I will not dig in my heels.  I do not want to be accused of thwarting any legislation because gambling issues are before the courts.  So I hereby officially withdraw my amendment with the gentlemen's or gentleladies' understanding that I will bring it back at a later date.  They are very reasonable.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Maybe before I say something else, there is a member who has stood up.  Mr Redinger, you seemed to want to say something?

MR A RAJBANSI:  No, Mr Speaker, I was just looking for the Speaker's list being distributed.

MR W U NEL:  It is just a mule stretching.  [LAUGHTER]

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  I take it you speak for yourself, Mr Nel.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  The hon member Mr Nel says it is a mule stretching in response to what the hon member says.  So that is a clear indication no doubt that he referred to the hon member as a mule and it is unparliamentary.  He can refer to his party as a mule but not to the member and I suggest that he withdraw that remark.

MR W U NEL:  Yes, I withdraw that.  It looked like a mule stretching.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  Any withdrawal has to be unconditional without any riders.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, thank you very much.  You have made our day and I am sure that everybody enjoyed that little bit of something.  I would now wish to call upon, it looks to me like we will have the Premier introducing this Bill.  Thank you, Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  As it pleases the Speaker.  Mr Speaker, this House will be aware that as a result of Mr Mhlungu's retirement last year, I assigned the administration of the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Act to myself with effect from 15 August 1996.  This change in portfolio has necessitated certain amendments to the Gambling Act, and the Bill before this House today, attempts to address this.

The proposed amendments in Clauses 1 and 2 are intended to streamline references to the Portfolio Committee in order to obviate the need to amend the Act each and every time that there is a change to the portfolio dealing with gambling issues.

Because the Minister of Finance was responsible for gambling matters at the time that the original Gambling Bill was referred to the Provincial Legislature, the Bill was dealt with by the Portfolio Committee on Finance.  This Portfolio Committee recommended that it be consulted in certain matters, for example, whenever the Minister appoints the Gambling Board, and accordingly reference to the Portfolio Committee on Finance is included in section 10 of the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Act, 1996.  The Portfolio Committee also recommended that it and the Portfolio Committee on Tourism be consulted whenever the Minister issues directives in terms of section 43 of the Act.

Circumstances have now changed, and as a logical consequence thereof, consultation as envisaged in the Act, should take place with the Premier's Portfolio Committee.  Rather than amend the Act to refer specifically to the Premier's Portfolio Committee which will result in the need to again amend the Act in the event that the portfolio changes, it is considered prudent to refer to the "Portfolio Committee" and to define this expression for ease of application.

The amendment in Clause 1 therefore seeks to substitute the references to "Portfolio Committee on Finance appointed by the Provincial Legislature" wherever they appear in the Act and to replace them simply with the reference "Portfolio Committee".

Clause 2 then inserts a definition of "Portfolio Committee" which has been constructed in such a way that its application is dynamic in that it will always refer to the relevant Portfolio Committee at a particular point in time, thereby obviating the need to engage the Legislature in unwarranted and trivial debate simply because of a portfolio change.

Clause 2 also amends the definition of "Minister", to make it clear that the Minister responsible for the Act can either be a member of the Executive Council or the Premier.  I accordingly propose that Clauses 1 and 2 be adopted.

Turning to Clause 3, the House will note that the amendments seek to include reference to the Regulation of Racing and Betting Ordinance, 1957 in various subsections of section 3 of the Act.  Reference to this ordinance was inadvertently omitted from some subsections of section 3 when the Gambling Bill was referred to the Legislature in July 1996.

The absence of a reference to the Ordinance means, for example, that the owner of a building would not be able to make such premises available for a bookmaker's business or a totalisator outlet or that a person could not be employed by a bookmaker or a totalisator (see section 3(3) and (4) in this regard).  This is definitely not the intention and thus the omission of a reference to the Regulation of Racing and Betting Ordinance, 1957 was clearly an oversight and needs to be rectified.  I accordingly propose that clause 3 be adopted.

Clause 4 of the Bill amends section 7 of the Act, which provides for the functions and powers of the Gambling Board.  The proposed amendment in paragraph (a) of Clause 4, simply numbers the existing section 4 as subsection (1).  The proposed amendment in paragraph (b) of Clause 4, inserts a new subsection (2).

The proposed subsection (2) provides that the Minister may, in consultation with the Cabinet, exercise the functions and powers of the Board in the absence of a Board, the intention being to provide for continuity in the event that the entire Board resigns or is terminated by the Minister in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Act.  There is a proviso which requires the Minister to take immediate steps to appoint a new Board.

The amendment is a necessary one as it is essential that there is always a body to exercise the powers and functions of the Board at all times.  I accordingly propose that the amendment in Clause 4 be adopted.

Clause 5 of the Bill deals with an amendment to section 28 of the Act which deals with disqualifications from being granted, holding or retaining a licence under the Act.  Subsection (1) deals with general disqualifications for individual persons and subsection (2) deals with disqualifications for a company, closed corporation, partnerships, trust and so on.

Subsection (2)(a) disqualifies a company, closed corporation, partnership, trust and so forth, from being granted, holding or retaining a licence if certain persons referred to in subsection (1) have any financial or pecuniary interest in such company, closed corporation, partnerships, trust etc.  These persons are a member of Parliament or any Provincial Legislature, a relative of a member of Parliament or any Provincial Legislature, a member of the Board, a member of its staff or an inspector or a relative of a member of the Board.

However, where subsection (2)(a) refers to a relative of a member of Parliament or any Provincial Legislature it also refers, advertently, to a relative of a public servant, a relative of a member or official of any other official gambling law enforcement agency or the South African Police Services, a relative of a member of a local authority or any council or Board established in terms of the Constitution or a relative of a member of the House of Traditional Leaders.

It was never intended to make this provision have such broad application, in that it was never the intention to disqualify a company from being granted a licence because, say, a relative of a public servant had a financial interest in such company.

To rectify this, it is necessary to amend the wording in paragraph (a) of subsection (2) to make it clear that it includes only the relative of a member of Parliament or any Provincial Legislature and the proposed amendment in Clause 4 seeks to achieve this.  

I accordingly propose that this amendment be adopted.

The amendment in Clause 6 is basically self-explanatory.  It is a consequential amendment to section 43(2) of the Act as a result of the substitution of references to "Portfolio Committee on Finance" as dealt with in Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill.  I propose that this clause be adopted.

Clause 7 amends section 81 of the Act which deals with the disqualifications from being appointed as an inspector under the Act.  When the principal Act was originally drafted, section 81 included the same disqualification provisions as those applicable to members of the Gambling Board and to applicants for licences under the Act.

However, in the case of disqualifications for members of the Gambling Board and applicants for licences, the provisions relating to convictions for offences were amended as a result of amendments recommended by the Finance Portfolio Committee when the Act was originally considered by it.  These amendments were inadvertently not carried through to section 81 of the Act and the amendment proposed in Clause 5 gives effect to this.

It is considered highly desirable that the same disqualification provisions be applicable to inspectors and to members of the Gambling Board and I accordingly propose that the amendment in Clause 7 be adopted.

Clause 8 of the Bill contains the short title and allows the Minister to determine the date on which the various provisions of the amendment Act will come into operation and I accordingly propose that it be adopted.

I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  The Bill has been tabled.  Now it is open for debate.  To lead the debate I have Mr Aulsebrook for ten minutes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Speaker, I rise to report on behalf of the Premier's Portfolio Committee.  That we met on 27 November 1996 to consider the final draft of the Gambling Amendment Bill.  The Portfolio Committee made two amendments to the Bill which was then published on 2 January 1997 in all three languages, Zulu, English and Afrikaans.

The Premier's Portfolio Committee again met on 24 January 1997, to consider the published Bill which was then approved unanimously by the committee.  I will later move for the adoption of the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Amendment Bill which is before this House today.

Having concluded the Portfolio Committee's report, I take this opportunity to summarise the Amendment Bill as the Premier has already dealt with it by enlarge in reasonable detail.  The Amendment Bill is basically designed to facilitate the implementation of the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Act of 1996, and it falls into three categories.

Firstly, the reference to "Finance Portfolio Committee" is substituted with "the relevant Portfolio Committee" thereby obviating the need to engage the Legislature in unwarranted and trivial debates simply because of portfolio change.

The second category, this refers to Chapter 2, section 7 which is the powers and functions of the Board which enables the Minister, in consultation with the Cabinet, to exercise the powers and functions of the Board in the absence of the Board.  The intention being to provide continuity in the event of the entire Board resigning or is terminated by the Minister in accordance with the relevant provision of the Act.

The third category, there are the amendments which refer to the Racing and Betting Ordinance of 1957, which can be found in section 3 of the Act and are consequential amendments for the sake of consistency and should have been included in the original Act.

While these amendments, that are before us today are not regarded as controversial in their context, the same cannot be said for the process we have embarked on in attempting to regulate and legalise the gaming industry.

There are those who are totally opposed to gambling on religious and moral grounds.  Then, on the other hand, we have those who want the illegal industry to continue in its present form without having to pay any taxes, without contributing to any of the social needs of this Province.

This is the basis for controversy.  But let us look a little deeper.  In existence we have illegal casinos which are earning exorbitant amounts of money for a handful of owners.  These casino operators will virtually fight to the death to protect their source of income, an income which they would not be able to earn in any other legal line of business for the same amount of capital invested.  They have engaged the services of people at great expense, to thwart the process we have embarked on.

Now focusing on this House.  During this process we have had to tolerate, we have encountered false accusations against numerous hon members and attempts have been made to derail this process by the hon member Mr Rajbansi.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I have a little bit of order. 

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I have a little bit of order.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI: ..... that I have been misleading this House, but I will debate with him outside.  He can never hide from me.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Aulsebrook, can you just give me a little bit of a chance.  Can we have a little bit of order.  A little bit of order please.  I appreciate it, there are times for interjections and they are democratic, but can we kindly desist from actually disrupting the proceedings of the House.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I bow down to your superiority.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Aulsebrook, you have been disturbed for about two minutes.  That is to your credit.  Thank you.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Rajbansi's accusation that have undoubtedly cast doubt on the integrity of hon members in this House and we really need to look into these issues and I will deal with that later.

Mr Rajbansi further went ahead two weekends ago and placed advertisements in newspapers or rather I would say wrote letters to newspapers.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, he must refer to another member as the honourable.  Only dishonourable members do not refer to honourable.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Outside the House we deal with them.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Ja, outside.  And he will never face me outside the House.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The more we delay the proceedings of the House the longer we are going to stay because I will give Mr Aulsebrook another minute extra.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I was telling the House about the letters the hon Mr Rajbansi wrote to the newspapers last weekend.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Produce them.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  I certainly have a copy here from the Sunday Times.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The cap is fitting you, you know you are flying high.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Rajbansi, in these letters to the paper was very defensive.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Do you know why?  Do you know why?  Shall we visit your house?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  He was almost apologetic and Mr Rajbansi has never ever been attacked or accused by anybody.  The question is, why was he so defensive in those letters?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Not defensive.  Who was defensive?  You are defensive.....

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Furthermore, an issue that came out of those articles was the issue that what he was doing in this process was in the name of promoting small business.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, and I am honest and sincere.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  I really believe that there is not a single member in this House that does not support the promotion of small and medium business.

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  So what makes Mr Rajbansi so special?  I am afraid his articles beg more questions than they answer.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I would really request that you give the hon member the protection of the Chair and allow him to complete his speech.  The hon member over there has an opportunity to speak later on and he can then respond.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No, no, Mr Rajbansi, I have not given you a chance to speak.  I will agree to the effect that I have made pleas that let us not disturb the proceedings.  Therefore I am going to request firstly from Mr Rajbansi to please remember that according to the list he also has a chance to speak.  Can he therefore use his time during that occasion when he speaks rather than disturb the member now.  That is the first request I am making and I think it is a very reasonable request.

I will also then request from members to be a little bit non-emotional whenever there are interjections but I will, not as he did, I just want to give this understanding here that I really will not hesitate if I think I am unable to control this House to take a little bit more firmer action either against a member or against the House itself.  So please can we be reasonable.  I have given Mr Aulsebrook three minutes more, but he has been disturbed even further and because he has been disturbed I will give him another two minutes more, but with this understanding that if now he is disturbed again there is likely to be a little bit more firmer action.  Thank you.  Can we then proceed on that basis.  Mr Aulsebrook, can you also work towards winding up please.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, that I will do.  Certainly controversy that has arisen in this process also surrounds the press and I must admit that it is not wise to attack the press because they always have the last say.  So I will not attack them, but there is an issue that needs to be dealt with and that goes around the issue of the funds that were received certainly by the IFP, and the press had a field day.

Now with regards to these funds, the IFP certainly acknowledged having received these funds and in fact were very open about it.  The main issue which everyone failed to acknowledge was the fact that, although some funds came from businessmen who had casino connections, the party at no stage altered its course with regards to regulating of the casino industry.

This House as well, stands on high ground and that we have at no stage been persuaded by people, whether it is monetary or any other favours, to change our stand.

I move that this House adopts the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Amendment Bill of 1997 which is before us today.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Aulsebrook.  I will call upon the hon Mr Mabuyakhulu for ten minutes.

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, one is actually getting into this debate, originally I wanted to speak just for one minute.  However, following the hon John Aulsebrook, I think he has stimulated the debate and therefore has made me to speak much longer than I intended to.

I think it is normal cause, and everyone is aware that normally when you debate legislation around gambling in particular, it often goes with a heated debate and I thought that these amendments were straightforward.

However, my colleague, the hon Mr Aulsebrook, has raised some pertinent issues, which originally I would not have probably touched on, but I think they deserve to be probed further.

One of those issues, first of all, we actually need to get an explanation from the parties that received contributions from the illegal casinos.  In this regard, an explanation, that on what basis were those contributions made during the height of the closure of those illegal casinos and that they received those contributions and also that those parties should come clean.  They must come clean and tell us exactly how much did they receive and what were the conditions attached to that.

There is often a saying that there is no thing called a free lunch and in this respect I think the IFP owes us an explanation.

Secondly, we also need to have an explanation on whether there is any other party other than the IFP that also received contributions, and if there is any other party that received contributions, what contributions were received from the small casinos and what were the conditions attached.

In this respect, I want to find out from the Minority Front, and in particular the leader of the Minority Front, whether he did receive any contributions from the small casinos and if indeed there were contributions, to what extent were those contributions made and what were the conditions attached.

MR A RAJBANSI:  We got R2m.  [LAUGHTER]

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  Thirdly, one also wants to know from members who persistently wanted to actually thwart the bringing into effect of these amendments, who have actually consistently wanted to come with arguments which in a way were seen to be arguments trying to prevent these amendments, whether there were actually promised any deals and if they were promised certain deals, what were those deals.

With those few remarks, I do not want to actually probe any further.  I hope that those hon members will come clean in terms of these questions, and they will answer them forthrightly and honestly and therefore give Parliament the necessary information we are requesting.

I therefore accept the amendments as put forward, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  According to my amended list here, I will now give a chance to Mr Wessel Nel.  The hon member has six minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  My party has also repeatedly asked for an explanation from parties who have received substantial donations, but I am now actually brought to the point where I think we should change our tack and rather ask for some coaching so that we too can join this harvesting spree and reap money?

I am surprised by your leniency this afternoon because the hon member Mr Rajbansi, seemed to me to display some cannibalistic tendencies by threatening to have the hon member Mr Aulsebrook for breakfast tomorrow morning.  [LAUGHTER]  Then he went on to get so excited that I was worried that he was perhaps going to have him for afternoon tea.  [LAUGHTER]

Really, this measure is not a controversial one, and most of the pertinent points regarding the specific amendments before us today have been made and our party will certainly support this amendment.  In particular, we are happy to have something which fills the vacuum that could arise in the event that there is not a Board and that now will allow the Premier, in consultation with Cabinet, to perform the necessary duties during any such, I believe the favourite term is, lacuna.

Having said that, there are a few other pertinent things which are not directly in the Amendment Bill, that need to be talked about again.

We have now had a kind of free for all for several years in gambling in this Province and in fact throughout the country, and one simply cannot allow that to continue indefinitely.  We need a transparent and effective control mechanism so that people can know what they are in for.  Day by day people go to gamble in this Province and unfortunately it is mostly those who cannot afford to do so, yet they have no idea of the percentage pay-outs that are offered by these facilities that they frequent.  They have no idea whether some of the money that is made off them is ever paid over in taxation and that simply cannot be tolerated by a province and indeed a country with the kind of development needs that we have got.  So it is high time that this whole thing be regularised. 

So we look forward now to the closure of illegal operations and then the proper licensing of legal operations.  If indeed it is necessary to revisit the legislation and amend it to accommodate the gambling industry in a different way, so be it, we can do that, but we cannot continue in this unregulated fashion.

There are important things that we will have to take care of as well in the implementation phase, and the Board will not only have to be intimately involved in drafting comprehensive regulations and broad policy but, in particular, we will have to make sure that all the promises that have been made by people who are prospective bidders for licences are honoured.  We have heard wonderful promises of development to come to this Province and the last thing we now need is to allow licensees, when they eventually become licensed, to buy existing facilities and simply turn them into gambling dens.  We would have to be very careful to have suspensive conditions attached to any licences to make sure that those promises are honoured and that ancillary infrastructure that is promised and contained in the bids is actually created for our Province.

Sir, with those words I would gladly support this amendment.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Nel.  I now call upon Dr Jiyane.  Sir, you have got ten minutes.

DR Z B JIYANE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Well, there are some issues here which have been raised with regard to the IFP's role in this gambling business.  I think that we should go on record as again saying, it is quite appreciated that this House seems to operate more and more on a reasonable basis of pursuing the good of the Province, but I think issues like this do not do us any good because it is pertinently clear that this is more grandstanding than anything.

We in the IFP have stated that there is some money which was received from illegal casinos, just as there was money received from many sources and as I recall, when the IFP received this money, of course clearly it was stated that no conditions would be attached to it.  Not only was that stated, but in fact if you see what we then proceeded to do in terms of the legislation that was passed by this Parliament, it was against the interests of the illegal casinos.

It is a party with integrity, a party that knows that it holds a position of trust for the people of KwaZulu-Natal that can do that.  Therefore it is inexplicable that it could be said that in any way those funds received affected the process of law-making with regards to this issue.

I will not yield to the temptation of going into the analogy because we will go back to what I have already said we should try to avoid.  I mean, if I were going to grandstand I would question, for example, and compare R50 000,00 to R2m that was received from Sol Kerzner.  Sol Kerzner who has not been arrested even now for doing something illegal.  In fact Holomisa was chased out for raising that.  I do not think that is an issue.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION AND LAUGHTER

DR Z B JIYANE:  The issue here is whether we as parties that constitute this body are going to be point-scoring and not build on what His Majesty, the King and our hon the Premier yesterday and the hon the Minister of Health this morning pointed out.  Well, if I may in a dignified way abdicate the member, the issue was raised from that side.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

DR Z B JIYANE:  Mr Aulsebrook raised the issue because he wanted to explain the facts, he did not want to attack anyone.  Now to use this as a basis to attack the integrity of another party is quite inexcusable.

I would like us also to congratulate the ANC, the National Party, the DP, the PAC, the ACDP as well as the IFP if we all have sense enough to adopt the amendments that have been proposed here by the Premier, because they are reasonable.

We think that the law that we have passed here will do the Province immense good in that we have had on our minds the interest of, say for example, the question of infrastructural development in the Province.  It cannot be gainsaid that whilst it is appropriate to say small businesses and medium sized business will be the engine of development, not only for KwaZulu-Natal but for the whole country of South Africa, in regards to this issue of gaming the facts are overwhelmingly in favour of the policy direction that we have taken here.

As regards, for example, the question of employment, it looks to me that the type of legislation we have adopted, provided that people who get licences are told that provisional in you continuing to have a licence that a suspensive, what do you call, provision that says they will have to provide this infrastructure.  If they do not they will forego their licences.

I think that will result not only in employment within the casino itself but the hotels, the many other amenities that will be built for the Province will provide thousands of jobs per one licence and we are talking about five big licences.

If you compare those jobs to the jobs that people are complaining about in the so-called small illegal casinos, there are just too many and therefore the argument is overwhelmingly in favour of the policy, which the IFP with the support of all the other parties in this House has adopted, that of giving licences to big operators who will invest immensely in the infrastructural development of the Province.

I think I must also point out that it is quite laudable that some of the applicants have included in their applications, I do not know if it was not supposed to be included as a requirement, that they will have in-house counselling, because we know that a lot of evils can come of course with this type of practice, whereby the poorest of the poor will find themselves spending their last cent in casinos hoping that one day they will be millionaires suddenly, which they will never become of course in most cases.

It would be quite appropriate if, for example, perhaps it is not a requirement now, that the Board looks favourably to those who want to say what they will do about the social responsibility.  The huge profits that they will reap obviously out of this business they should be able to have counselling and perhaps it could be part of the profits that they get that they should invest say 1% or 2% or more of their profits to counselling which will help members that will be even worse off because of this practice.

I think that we cannot wait, from the IFP side, to have the implementation of this legislation because, as the hon Premier correctly pointed out and even His Majesty, the King pointed out, our calling and our priority is to see to it that this Province truly becomes a beacon of hope for all of South Africa.  We have the resources, we have the talented leaders here within these walls, I believe, we have some of the best in the country, and for us to show evidence of that we must see an economy that improves drastically and that improves in which area?  In an area which, in my view, is the biggest problem facing the country today.  I do not think crime necessarily is the biggest problem or any other, I think the biggest problem facing this country is the question of unemployment because crime and other things come because of unemployment.

Now we as public figures, if we are really deserving of this title, we must see to it that what we do results in jobs for ordinary people, so that we may no longer have people who say they got themselves in situations of crime, they would not have gone there, but because of the economic situation.  I think this measure is one big blow in favour of employment.  If this measure by the Premier is adopted, and I am pleased to see that most parties seem to be agreeable to it, we will strike a big blow for our people in favour of employment and the type of employment that will cause KwaZulu-Natal to be a destination for tourists worldwide and tourists also from within South Africa.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, it appears to me anybody who would oppose this legislation would really have the onus on them, the burden of proof to show what other means would have resulted in such a massive gain in terms of employment and infrastructural development for the Province, other than the course that we have followed.

You know, some people speak so much about the money that the IFP and the ANC and others received from so-called illegal casinos, but they do not really answer the question, if they think that illegal casinos for some reason perhaps were done badly by the IFP support of the legislation, which is an alternative policy to that which was followed by the ANC.

You see, the point is that what people are raising would become valid if and when we are accused of having pursued a policy option which is questionable.  Nobody questions our policy option, but people are talking about tangential things and not explaining how, in their view, for example, if they support the small casinos, illegal casinos, how that squares up.  There was an article yesterday in the Mercury, I forget the author of the article, which had wonderful arguments in favour of the large casinos that are going to be allowed here.  Of course, I think I would fully support that and whilst doing so I would not say I disregard the value of small and medium sized businesses.  I was in Taiwan last year and I saw how this country can be rescued from its biggest problem of unemployment through encouraging small and medium sized business, but that should not blind us to the macro picture, to the bigger picture.  The need to induce massive capital for investment in tourism here.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  Thank you from the hon member.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Rajbansi as he had indicated that I had an amended list here.  On my amended list it indicates that I now have to give Mr Haygarth seven minutes before I give Mr Rajbansi.  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, quite clearly this afternoon has shown how controversial this particular subject matter is concerned.  Insofar as the Province of KwaZulu-Natal is concerned, we must bear in mind that the gaming spend in this Province, by comparison with the Western Province, is R450m in KwaZulu-Natal and R490m in the Western Cape, and of our tourist competitor it is indicative of how careful we must be in how we handle the allocation of gambling resources.

More significant, however, is the fact that in the Western Cape, R450m of the R490m is in the Peninsula whereas as in KwaZulu-Natal only R272m is in the area, let us call it the Durban Metro or the Greater Durban area and there are five other areas dropping from R70m down to about R25m.  Now I think that indicates the significance that we have of how we actually develop our resources in this Province.

Secondly, the Interprovincial Liaison Committee on Gambling, Gaming and Betting which dealt with the casino gaming capacity investigation in June 1995, provided an indication of what was in the best interests of all of the provinces in dealing with the distribution of gaming licences.

The report was prepared by professional accountants called Ernst and Young who had done investigations throughout the world of the comparative methods by which other countries had developed their gaming industry.  They posed three alternatives.

One, was a monopoly situation, one licence, one casino and they recommended that would not be in the financial interests of this Province.

The second alternative was managed competition, and it was in respect of managed competition that Ernst and Young came to the conclusion that this resulted in the best investment opportunities in the Province, the best tax return to the Province and thirdly, the best return to the individual gamblers in the form of the payments out of the gambling itself.  For all three reasons they maintained that that was the best way in which we should go forward and this is the way basically the Province itself has followed.

Now the third alternative is the free enterprise method, and they indicated that with the maximum amount of competition that that would result in, you would have less money available for the Province, you would have less money available for the winners and you would have less investment basically arising from that.

So the indication from the professionals who investigated this was that the Province should follow in fact the route which it has done.

Now reference has been made to the article in the Natal Mercury which appeared yesterday the 19th, and it was written by Jeff Austen as the chief executive officer of Tourism in Durban.

Now he listed six particular reasons on which a comparison between the bigger institutions and the smaller institutions could be made and he basically is coming out in favour of the bigger institution.  But like Mr Nel, I want to raise one doubt in respect of what he has to say.

The last desire he puts down for the gambling industry is:

	The gambling industry must make KwaZulu-Natal a more attractive tourist destination.

Now the report of Ernst and Young makes it clear that gambling per se does not attract tourists.  Tourists come to this country for other reasons.  Gambling is incidental, they do spend money in casinos but that is taken into account in the gaming spend.

Now he then goes on to say:

	The large operators have promised to bring to the Province resorts, entertainment, hotels, tour operations, theme parks, aquariums, amusement parks, lodges and traditional Zulu villages, cinemas and virtual reality theatres, live concerts and major sporting events.

Mr Speaker, with the greatest respect, those promises in my humble view are unlikely to be met, unless you have an agreement which is quite clear as to what the obligations are, which provides a programme for when those are to be achieved and the amount of money that is going to be invested.  The reason why you cast doubt on these promises is simply this.

Gambling and casinos are there to make a profit for those who invest in them.  They have already talked about what they are going to do about being socially responsible and developing the human resources of the Province.  They are going to do all of that.  Now out of their profits they are going to spend these substantial amounts of money, that are required to achieve the realisation of the promises and with the greatest respect I do not believe that that truly represents what they in the end would do unless it is tied up very carefully.

That is the caution I want to make in the controversial nature which exists in this industry.  To make a decision in favour of one group or groups of people on the basis of promises, without them being substantiated and forming part of the agreement will only bring further controversy into this Province and we need to handle this extremely carefully insofar as whatever number of licences we issue and to whosoever we may issue them.  Whatever their promises are there is need to be very careful.

In the Amendment Bill, which is before us, we have the clause which amends Clause 7, and gives the power to the Minister and to the Cabinet to handle issues when the Gambling Board is non-existent.

Now I accept that there has been a proviso attached to that which says that:

	Provided that the Minister shall take immediate steps to appoint a Board in accordance with the provisions of section 10 of this Act.

Now fair enough, if the Minister immediately appoints it then there is no need for the Minister and the Cabinet to have the power.  But if this is necessary, and it could well be necessary, we would certainly not expect to see some filibustering taking place over the appointment of the Gambling Board while the Minister and the Cabinet get on with making the vital decisions.  The whole background to the Gambling Board was that we should be careful that we have an independent and duly representative body to make recommendations.

We needed to have them because they were non-political in a sense and they had a variety of knowledge and experience in various aspects of this development and we should make sure that all the major decisions in regard to gambling are participated in by the Gambling Board, and not only by the Minister and the Cabinet.

It is with that reservation that we support the amendments to the Bill and make that annotation.  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  Mr Rajbansi, now it is your turn for six minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am very glad that one of our most disciplined, hon members and respected member in financial administration, has given us two concerns.

One is that it is a fallacy for us to believe that tourists come to this country for casinos.  I remember the hon Mr Hamilton indicated to me that the casino operators want to use the profits from the casino to provide tourist facilities.  Then the wise hon Mr Haygarth also expresses a word of caution.  Are they going to give us these beautiful plans of holiday resorts merely to get a licence?

In this Bill we are not dealing with these main issues.  Nobody has any reason to thwart the passage of this Bill because the Bill is non-controversial.  They are technical in nature.  There are enabling provisions to change Portfolio Committees because the Act restricts, shall I say that one particular Portfolio Committee must deal with matters relating to casinos.

The other issue which was raised in respect of amendment of section 7 was that you might have an unusual situation where the Board might be disgruntled and the members of the Board resign en bloc.  So it enables the relevant Minister through the Cabinet to ensure that the regulation of the industry continues.

I want to say to the IFP, that if I make reference to the conduct of individual members it is not an indictment against the IFP and I think the hon Dr Ziba Jiyane quite correctly stated, because in retrospect to the debate about the donation, and the debate was raised by the chief spokesperson on gambling by the IFP, I do not think if it was not raised by him it would ever have been a subject of debate this afternoon.

But to the credit of the IFP their actions are really actions against the illegal unauthorised small casinos who, according to the press, donated certain sums of money.

What I am concerned about is that this afternoon we have heard that I have been casting accusations at certain hon members of this House.  The truth must never be denied.  The ultimate truth may be established, but I was taken to the disciplinary committee and the recording of the proceedings of the Finance Portfolio Committee proves that I did not make those accusations.  The best proof is the recording.

I have the right to comment publicly when the hon Mr John Aulsebrook led us to casinos and if you had the biggest champions of those small casinos in this House up to a certain date it was the hon Mr John Aulsebrook.  I was perfectly within my rights to question why he had done an about turn, why he did a somersault which even, shall I say, broke the record of the great football star Pel when he somersaulted and scored that great goal in Sweden in the World Cup Finals.  [LAUGHTER]  He has beaten that world record.

So when the greatest champion of the small casinos produces to us a policy of his party about free economic enterprise, about the promotion of small and medium sized business, then it is a matter for concern.

I had placed an amendment today perfectly within the Rules.  I withdrew it in a spirit of co-operation.  I had pointed out certain concerns when this Bill was tabled previously, concerns because an hon Minister of this House was taken to the Supreme Court with success, because procedures were not followed.

If this Bill is not approved today, this Bill was never tabled.  It does not stop the regulation regulating the casino industry and no political party and no individual in this House wants casino industries to go unregulated and nobody in this House wants casinos to spring up in the manner in which the illegal casinos have sprung up.

I will deal with the question of tourism on another date, but what is important, we must start off this industry with the utmost of integrity, and the integrity of the Board can be established without any reasonable doubt.  The performance of individual members is something which must be subject for discussion and I say it is the democratic right of anyone to deal with these things.

This amendment to section 28 restricts members of the Legislature, the original Gambling Act restricts the rights of individuals and we have to re-examine that.  What about restricting former councillors who cannot serve on the Board?  It is an unfair restriction.

My amendment is a proposal, that those who are sitting here to set the rules, who might have, shall I say, private ideas, shall I say entertaining ideas within the knowledge of themselves that one day they want to enter the casino industry.  Should they be allowed to become licensees or hold shares in businesses that apply for casino licences?  It is a moral issue.  It is a question that affects integrity and that is what I was trying to point out to the hon Mr Mike Mabuyakhulu when he made an indirect reference to me, that there are members who want to thwart the passage of the Bill.  If I wanted to do that I could have stood up and said, "Mr Speaker, you cannot debate the Bill", and I said so in a spirit of co-operation added with a spirit of co-operate co-existence.

So if any person who has steadfastly said that I stand for free economic enterprise for the promotion of small and medium sized business, it is the Minority Front.  We have done so unashamedly on every aspect of our activity in this country.  If that hon member wants a good tongue-lashing he rather keep his big red tongue quiet.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time up.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, we support this Bill.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Well, you did not have to say that, Mr Rajbansi, you really never opposed this Bill in all you said.  I will now call upon Mr Konigkramer.  Mr Konigkramer, you have got ten minutes.

MR KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I just want to begin by making a few general remarks about the legislation.  I am not going to deal with the detail because it has been dealt with very properly by the Premier and the Chairman of the Committee.

I just want to say that I support the amendments.  I think we have got a good piece of legislation which is going to do the Province proud, and I am quite sure I for one have faith in the Board and I am quite sure it is going to be well run.

I just want to point out, having said that, that we must not forget that all these casinos have been illegal.  In fact it is in fact an insult to this House that we have allowed for almost two years an industry to proliferate which is illegal, and I think we must not forget that.  We are not going to apportion blame as to how that came about but we must not forget that.

We must also accept that we, that are responsible for a Government that is cash-strapped I think of being guilty of a dereliction of duty in a sense because these people that have been making millions and millions and millions of Rands which they have not paid taxes on and in fact that money could have gone into the upliftment of the people.

Then I just want to make in parentheses a remark.  The hon Mr Rajbansi, I have listened very carefully to what he has been saying and I hear this constant repetition of small business, small business, small business.  What is small business?  There is a certain casino operator in Durban who installed an escalator worth more than half a million Rand in December when he knew that they were facing closure.  Is that small business?

I now want to come back to the real small business and I would say to you, sir, that there are two parties in this House that need to be complimented on actually having achieved something.

The first one is the people that sit on this side of the House who, to a very large degree, represent the former KwaZulu Government, and it cannot be gainsaid that virtually every single Black business in this Province has been created by the KwaZulu Government and that is small business, all of it.  So I get rather tired of hearing these people harping and harping and harping all the time when they have in fact achieved nothing.

The second category I think the members opposite, particularly the hon leader of the ANC, I think he deserves to be complimented for what he has done in his own Ministry in setting up the SMME desks and there is a lot of progress there.  So I think if we really want to talk about small business, those are the two parties that have actually done the work and not, as my colleague Dr Jiyane said, grandstanding and professing to be in support of small business.

I now want to get to an issue which I believe needs to be addressed, and that is that I believe the integrity of this House has been impugned by the hon Mr Rajbansi.

If I were to read to you, for example, the minutes of the meeting of 4 February, the motion which he tabled in the House, which I think is a disgrace.  It impugns the integrity of our Premier.  I do not know of any man with greater honour and integrity.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR KONIGKRAMER:  The fact that he poses questions, "Why did you take over the Gambling Portfolio?"  It is a disgrace, Mr Speaker.  Then he goes on to impugn the integrity of a whole series of other people and this is simply not acceptable.  I want to say that the time has come when the hon member must learn to mend his tongue.  He thinks that he can impugn people's integrity like this and get away with it.  And you cannot, Mr Speaker.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I listen to the order?

MR A RAJBANSI:  No member in his speech is allowed to preempt a debate on a motion that appears on an Order Paper, and he has cast aspersions on me.  I have never cast any aspersion on any member in that motion.  If he understands simple English or German English.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That is not really a point of order in this matter.

MR KONIGKRAMER:  It is not a point of order, but we are used to those sort of gratuitous remarks.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Will you proceed.

MR KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, I am illiterate, I cannot understand English you see.  [LAUGHTER]  This is the problem we have.  There is only one master of everything.

Let me go further.  Let us look at where the hon Mr Rajbansi comes from.  Do you really think that we are going to forget the tri-cameral Parliament.  Then who does the hon member actually represent?  He comes here continually professing to represent, for example, the Indian people and I would suggest to you that there are more people on this side of the House that represent the Indian community than he does.  He has got one seat.  Certainly, the African National Congress represents far more Indians than the hon Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of correction.  The Local Governments statistics are available for the hon member.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We do not have a point of correction in our Rules, Mr Rajbansi.  Can you proceed.

MR KONIGKRAMER:  The piece to resist I think is sadly, sadly we have to admit that the people who really represent the Indian people in this House are the Nationalists.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR KONIGKRAMER:  And why is that?  Why is that?  That is because of the successes achieved by the hon Mr Rajbansi in the tri-cameral Parliament.  He fought their election battles for them and he won it.

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION  [LAUGHTER]

MR KONIGKRAMER:  I will take that whence it comes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order! Order! Order!  Can we have order please.  Continue, Mr Konigkramer.  Can we have order please.  Order!

MR KONIGKRAMER:  Let me conclude by saying that we on this side of the House will most certainly do our utmost to see to it that an industry which is illegal and which has got a very unsavoury side to it because of the way things have been done, that it is cleaned up.  That in fact they pay their taxes honourably like everybody else, that it is properly regulated and in fact that it does not become the monopoly of a few individuals and that it actually benefits the public good.

Then I am going to conclude and maybe with a little bit of facetiousness.  I would like to make two requests.  The first one to the hon Minister of Transport.  I would ask the hon Minister of Transport that he gives serious consideration to providing a seat belt for a certain member in this House.  I would suggest to him, not being a gambling man, that he should try and see to it that for the member's own safety that it be kept buckled when you are on the chair.  But not being a gambling man I do not think he is going to succeed.  [LAUGHTER]

Then secondly and lastly, Mr Speaker, I would like to make an appeal to the hon Minister of Health.  Unfortunately he is not here but maybe the two ANC colleagues could pass that on, and that is that if he can find a cure for verbal diarrhoea he will achieve great things for this House.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you from the hon member.  Can we allow the hon member to start his contributions please ~Nkwali~ ~yeNkosi~, ~Baba~ ~Shamase~ ~ithuba~ ~lakho~ ~Baba~.  ~Imizuzu~ ~iyisithupha~ ~nje~ ~kuphela~ ~Baba~.  [Father Shamase it is your opportunity, sir.  You have only six minutes father].

MR J D MKHWANAZI:   ~Ngiyabonga~ ~Baba~ ~Somlomo~, [Thank you Mr Speaker], as a son of a minister of religion I am going to quote from a verse in the Bible.  Unfortunately I am not a minister myself, I may not do it verbatim.  There is a verse in the Bible which first asks the question.  "Why beholdest thou the mote that is in your brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"  It goes on to advise that, "cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye."

When I hear this verbal, not verbal diarrhoea.  [LAUGHTER]  When I hear these verbal crossfires, I am reminded of that verse and I sit and think, I wonder who has a mote in the eye and who has a beam in the eye, and we need to think about that so that we can help our brothers.

Having said that, I stand to say that my party supports the amendment to the Bill.  I personally have, as a person, subjective ideas about gambling.  I say they are subjective because every time I try to gamble I lose.  Even all those things where you hlikihla, you rub, I lose and as a person I do not think I will go into the casino because I have tried it in Swaziland, I put R20,00 and I lost.  In Germany I also lost. Even in America I lost.  I think a good justification has been made for the establishment of casinos in this country and in this Province, and the Act and these amendments are only emphasising the regulation of gambling.  This is important, so that people like me, I do not know how I can be identified.  If I am seen going to that casino there down the South Coast with my pocket full of money, I should be stopped.  There should be a way to stop me going there because when I put that money that money will not come back.

So to support this amendment and to support the Gambling Bill, I think there are positive aspects.  It definitely will give more people jobs.  I mean we cannot say anything against that.  That is why even the illegal casinos when they are being closed, I mean it is a fact, whether we like it or not, whether it is right or wrong, a lot of people are going to lose jobs.  We could not go on with illegal practices because then there would be anarchy in the country.

Therefore we agree, let gambling be controlled, let gambling be regularised or regulated so that we do not have anybody just putting their things there, gambling and doing all sorts of cheating.

Of course, gambling, like legal casinos are legal robberies, because before they can give you the money they are sure to make about a thousand times profit before they give you one million and then you say you have gained.

People are not forced to go there, it is their own business shauri yabo.  As people in Tanzania say, if they think they can go there to get the money let them go there and if they lose, they lose.

I therefore support this amendment.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Induna.  I just wanted to remind the hon members in case they have forgotten, that your verbal diarrhoea is being televised.  So be assured that you are spilling it over, beyond this House.  Mrs Downs, you have six minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION 

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I am being interrupted.  Mr Speaker, for a very non-controversial Bill and everybody has stood up here, every hon member who has spoken has stood up and said this is a non-controversial Bill.  For a non-controversial Bill it has been very controversial and my party's stand on gambling, I think is well-known, but just for the record let me reiterate it.

The ACDP is totally against gambling of any kind, either big gambling or the "small" illegal casinos that are presently operating in this country.  So I have to take issue with Mr Jiyane when he said that the Gambling Bill had the full support of this House.  We certainly do not support it.

The reason that we did not support it in the first place, and again I would like to take a quote from the hon member Mr Konigkramer's speech.  He said that we are now going to clean up gambling and it is actually my point that you cannot clean up gambling.  Big gambling, large scale casinos were a brainchild of a mobster by the name of Bugsy Segal who invented the whole idea of Las Vegas, and that was where big gambling concerns first came into being.

Whereas I am not saying that the big casinos that we are going to operate here are necessarily connected with the Mafia, but as the members of this House well know, there are three political parties that are currently sitting in this House that have been tainted with the brush of controversy due to their involvement with gambling houses and that is the ANC, the IFP and the National Party.  Two of them with large scale casino operators and one of them with small scale casino operators paying funds into the political party.

Now everybody has stood up and given reasonable explanations and so on for this kind of payment and for their parties receiving this kind of payment.  I thought that the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi was going to preempt me but in the words of the good book we should actually ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS J M DOWNS:  The IEC money is well accounted for.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS J M DOWNS:  That is not the debate in hand.  As the hon member well knows, I do not think there is one party in this House whose IEC funds are adequately accounted for, particularly yours, sir.

If I may go on with my speech.  I would just like to say that the other thing I would like to raise about the casinos is that they are there purely to make money and the previous hon member referred to it as legalised theft with which I thoroughly concur and I will give you an example.

The only gambling game where the house can be beaten by means of skills is Blackjack.  When people play Blackjack and they become card counters, where they actually count the cards and they know where they are.  Where they can beat the house by skill, they are actually thrown out of the casinos and they are not permitted to play.

AN HON MEMBER:  Where did you learn about gambling?

MRS J M DOWNS:  Where did I learn about gambling?  I study the things that I am going to talk about.

AN HON MEMBER:  Are you saying that you have never gambled yourself?

MRS J M DOWNS:  Never.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, sir, may I ask for your protection.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order.  Let the hon member speak please.  
MRS J M DOWNS:  We would like to say as a party that both large scale casinos and small scale casinos actually cater to that aspect of human nature where every one of us dream of receiving something for nothing.  What they do is they publish the fact that one person out of how many wins millions and they make it a big issue, but the fact of the matter is that the only people that are really benefitting from casinos are the casino owners and operators themselves.

Many, many times, and I really want to be serious here and I want to actually speak what is on my heart, I get very upset when I see that in casinos very often it is the people that are illiterate, the people that are the poorest of the poor that go there to try and get their dreams to come true by gambling and they are lured there by the publishing of the one or two people that actually win something in the casinos.

Now if these people were educated, if they knew, for example, that the only way that you can win against the house consistently is by playing Blackjack.  That the people who are trained and who know how to play are thrown out of the casinos.  Do you think that they would then still gamble if they knew what is going to happen to them, that their money is going to be taken from them and they are going to receive nothing in return for it.

That is the thing that really concerns me.  You talk about making jobs available and creating jobs by the operation of these large casinos, but I ask you at what expense are these jobs going to be created?  Where is the money going to come from that creates these jobs and I contend that it comes from very much the poorest of the poor, to create jobs for maybe people who have a different skills level.  It is for these reasons that we are against casinos.  Nevertheless, because this Bill actually limits the operating of illegal casinos and the slot machines that are, in my opinion, the worst excesses of the industry, we have to support what is happening now and the amendments to put it under the proper Portfolio Committee.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I will now call upon Mr Brian Edwards.  You have got 15 minutes, sir.

MR B V EDWARDS:  How many sorry, Mr Speaker?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Sorry, six.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I almost got a few extra minutes which we should have had, Mr Speaker, if you look at the allocation.

Section 96 of the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Act, provides that the Premier may fix different dates of coming into operation of sections of the Act.  In my opinion, that was a wise option and gave scope in order to bring the very necessary regulation, control and registration and licensing of gaming establishments through in an evolutionary way.

This, I think, would result in the least amount of disruption and hardship to those employed in the industry - however people may feel about it - especially those who relied on this employment. There are many unemployed people at the moment, for their livelihood and that of their families and secondly, to regulate the gaming establishments, accepting the principle that a certain number is to be licensed and gaming as such is to be legalised.  The same way as horse racing is legalised.

In this way to maximise the tax collection to the benefit of the fiscus, the Province and our community.  I believe it is regrettable that the hon Premier perhaps was persuaded by other interests.  Maybe the big casinos, the big five, the hopefuls, perhaps the horse racing industry to invoke the guillotine method.

We have seen what has happened with the guillotine method.  That in this case the operators, after the Board was appointed on 10 January, had 14 days in blunt terms to close down or the guillotine would fall.  We know by court interdict this has been suspended.  Where it goes to next we are not sure and anything can happen.  I have grave doubts about that guillotine method.

The Western Cape at one stage indicated a far more practical and sympathetic method.  Allowing, from a fixed date, for operators to apply in terms of criteria set, regulations set down, how a licence operates and they would then apply.  They could then continue to operate, get their house in order with the least disruption to the employees and the industry - some 9 000 in this Province.  If they did not fulfil the criteria then they have to be closed down.  I can support that method.

The Portfolio Committee dealing with this legislation, the Premier's Portfolio, were recently addressed by a member of the Gaming Control Board of the State of Mississippi.

AN HON MEMBER:  He died.

MR B V EDWARDS:  He died, did he.  Maybe they shot him.  Who gave a most enlightening account of the recent introduction of controlled gambling into the State of Mississippi.  At commencement their Board unconditionally gave all operators a temporary licence provided they fell within the strict controls of legality and proposed legislation.  The legislation allowed a free-market system to come into operation, not limiting licences, as long as they complied with strict controls imposed.  I understand, however, they had to put their particular operations over water, you know, the Huckleberry Fynn Act I think it is called.

The 12% taxation was imposed on the gross gaming revenue.  Eight percent was allocated to the State of Mississippi and four percent to the local authority where that particular operator was based.  The amounts to be applied to assist in education, job creation, social welfare, sport and the like and the total in that particular State amounted to some $35m.

Also most interesting was that no limit was placed on the number of operators or casinos.  Presently there are some 30 large casinos and 350 small operators.  A limit to bingo halls and slot machines, no limit on machines.  Well, that is interesting in a total population in the State of some 4m people.

Perhaps even more interesting, after stringent regulation on licensing less than 5% of operators closed or had to be closed down.  The free-market system not only worked, but crime associated with gambling almost disappeared because they regulated themselves and that is what happened.

Their success, Mississippi felt, was that the free-market system halted the corruption found elsewhere, where civil servants and politicians had a large say in the granting of licences and certainly graft and bribes were common place.  Even the Chairman of our shifted standing Portfolio Committee, the hon Mr Aulsebrook, was most impressed with the Mississippi option and if he were honest he would not deny that.

Rumour has it, he has even been harassed by persons wanting to influence the initial process but I for one have no doubts about the integrity of Mr Aulsebrook, and I mean that honestly.

The amending Bill before us has as its main thrust, I believe consequential and good housekeeping amendments and so I will not discuss those.  I believe they have been adequately debated here today.

My greatest fear is knowing the red tape and inefficiency prevalent in the world today and possibly in the operation of the appointed Board.  There will probably be unacceptable delays in the granting of licences and allowing the operation of legal operators awaiting the development of the macro plan by the Board which needs to be in place before the licences can be granted for casinos for root and side operators.

The hardship this could cause to employees of the gambling operators now in business, legal or not, and I fully support the promotion of small business of all kinds, could have devastating effects on the employees and their families.  Over 200 casinos and an estimated 10 000 or so employees, the hon Mr Rajbansi previously put this at 200 000 employees, but of course that is a fisherman's story.

AN HON MEMBER:  The shad.

MR B V EDWARDS:  The shad story.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is a fishy figure.

MR B V EDWARDS:  The National Party supports the steps taken to control and regulate all gaming within the Province, particularly because of the ever prevalent potential of abuse in the gambling industry and a potential tax income being dodged or lost.  Of course this happens in horse racing too, let us not forget it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  May the hon member wind up.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Substantial investments has been in gambling establishments and the National Party believes that limitation and regulation of gaming activities, casinos, lotteries, side operators and others should be done in an evolutionary way and not the revolutionary way which is the guillotine method.  I believe it is causing its own little revolution.  We have already seen that happening with legal proceedings.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Wind up please.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Just a last word of warning and others have mentioned some of their doubts.  The estimated gaming revenue of our region is some R430m, with foreign tourist contribution being a meagre R1,58m.  That is all.  That is what it is going to give towards tourism.  Hardly something to be really excited about and certainly a warning not to over-capitalise on expensive capital developments and thus a balance, I believe is needed between the large and small gaming outlets.  It is essential if we want to get the revenues that we expect otherwise we are going to be very disappointed and I think it is going to be the wise way to go.

With these reservations, Mr Speaker, and not directly in respect to the amended Bill, I support the Bill before us.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon Dr Sutcliffe.  According to my list, you have got 12 minutes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thanks, I will probably be a lot quicker than that.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That would be fantastic.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  The first two comments on the speakers list.  The first is that it is clear to me that the hon Aulsebrook begins his journey through life in the IFP, he tests out the National Party, IFP but eventually ends up as being a member of the ANC.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  INTERJECTION

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Well, certainly as we go through the Speaker's list you end up being ANC.  We want to say that you cannot just assume you will automatically be a member.  We know you have applied.  [LAUGHTER]  But wait for the committee to decide.

The second quick point is that in a sense this whole debate has been out of order and I am surprised that the Speaker decided to allow it, because in terms of our Rules, an Amendment Bill should stick to the amendments and very few people have commented on those amendments.

AN HON MEMBER:  You cannot pick on the Speaker.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I never pick on the Speaker.  He will rule me out of order.  So I am going to actually stick to the nature of this debate and make four quick comments.

The first is that certainly the ANC's approach to gambling is one that argues that you can either deal with it as you deal with a sin and simply say at one extreme that you ban it completely, that gets us nowhere.  The other extreme is what happened in the pre-1994 days, it is treated as a monopoly and that clearly we cannot do now because of the consequences they would have.  You have got to look at something in between that regulates, that manages, that ensures that we do not have simply a proliferation of gambling in this Province.

There are social aspects that are evils themselves associated with gambling and that is something we must recognise, but at the same time, and I speak as a sinner myself, you need to ensure that gambling in fact is allowed.

So really, the approach that we have adopted here is a reasonable approach.  It is an approach that says let us get regulation, let us get a legal gambling industry going here.  So certainly we support any attempt to make sure that that in fact will work.

Secondly, we say it has to be a developmental approach.  That is why it has to be part and parcel of our overall macro economic guidelines.  You have got to build it into some plan.  To simply say we will have five centres for elites that can simply wander in and pay their money in gambling and not contribute to the overall vibrancy of this economy is a wrong approach.

So the ANC's approach is certainly consistent with the approach that I think that the majority of parties in this chamber support.  In terms of these specific amendments we certainly support them and I think that they have been an important lesson to us.  Then the way we draft legislation in the future we should ensure that the Premier might change it from one portfolio to another, that in fact the work of the Portfolio Committee needs to be facilitated.  So in that sense we can learn a lot, that in future we do not have to come back with an Amendment Bill, we ensure that from the beginning we do not be too prescriptive about what we do.

The third comment is just briefly around this issue of party funding because the ANC's view on that was not to say that political parties should not have the right to receive funds to run their operations.

The issue here was purely around the question of receiving money from illegal operations and in that sense some would argue well, there is a degree of legitimacy here but the question is that you start getting into those grey areas where illegal enterprises, whether they are drug merchants and the like, can start beginning to influence legislatures.

I think that should actually be an indication to all of us, no party is perfect in that process, but we need to ensure that we bring in our own internal guidelines, to ensure that we are not accepting money from illegal enterprises.  But accepting money is certainly the right of those parties.

Finally, I would just make a few comments to the hon Premier. I am sure in the almost 20 years he has had in contributing to legislation in this Province, he probably, when he woke up this morning, felt that this was the biggest gamble he was taking because the odds I was offering this morning was 100 to one, that this Bill in fact would not be passed because we would probably get some technicalities delaying it again.

I think when the hon Rajbansi heard that I was offering those odds he decided to mess me up and he withdrew his amendments on that.  [LAUGHTER]  So the first is, it has been a big gamble.

Secondly, in conclusion, I think that this House should note that it is the Premier's last Bill in fact that he is going to have steered through the Legislature in this Province, but certainly will bring about much more regulation and certainly will contribute immensely to this economy.  I think that we salute him for that.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, especially for your time conservation.  I now wish to call upon Mr Aulsebrook.  You have five minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  They do not want me to speak at all.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  That is a Rajbansi trick.  Mr Speaker, our Committee and certainly the Department have had a very difficult task in preparing legislation to set up the legal gaming industry.  There were certain parameters within which they had to work.  There was the National Gambling legislation which was an overarching legislation which basically laid out certain parameters.  Then there was the Cabinet resolution.  Our Cabinet passed a resolution setting out three objectives.

Firstly, finance and develop the infrastructure, tourist and community facilities.  Secondly, it had to create stable and diverse employment opportunities.  Thirdly, serve to uplift, advance and economically empower historically disadvantaged and underprivileged people and communities.

Now the industry as it is now certainly cannot do any of those.  It does not fit within those parameters.  So it was a difficult decision we had to make and it was a decision that has been taken that they should be closed down and a complete new industry be born again.  Certainly to quote from the hon Mr Rajbansi's motion, we need to establish a gaming industry clean and beyond suspicion.

Now certainly beyond suspicion is not the way in which we have got off, certainly as far as the legislation side goes, but let us hope that beyond this point suspicion does not bedevil us.

One of the problems that we have encountered while drawing up this legislation and the various controversial issues that have arisen, has been the issue of our civil servants involved in the process, who have come under attack by a certain member of our Committee.  Those attacks have been along racial lines.  It is easy for us as members of this House to defend ourselves when a certain member starts off his speech or statements referring to the rainbow nation and we know that a racially motivated statement is going to follow, but when civil servants are attacked racially they also need to be defended.  It is not only those in the Department that have handled gambling, we have had the Housing Department attacked in a similar way.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Will the hon member take a question?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  No thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Will you give the reason why you do not want to take my question?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No, he is not required to do that.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Speaker, the question posed to the Premier this morning with regards to the racial make-up of the Department.

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  That was racially motivated.  The whole of our administration must be complimented on their achievements of being a multi-racially, rainbow nation composed administration that we have.  It may not be perfect but then we are only human.  It may need a bit of fine-tuning, but it may never ever fully represent the exact demographics of this Province, but they have been remarkable in the achievements thus far.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Nobody in the Committee attacked them.  Get the tapes out, get the tapes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  We support the motion.  Thank you very much.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I thank you, Mr Aulsebrook.  You have just rescued me.  We have come to the end of the debate and everybody has had their say and I could see that the Premier was listening very intently.  It is about time he replied to that debate.  Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to express my very sincere thanks to everybody who has taken part in this debate.  There have been points here very much directed to the actual amendment.  There have also been points that have been off beam insofar as the amendment is concerned, but perhaps they did help us to have a little bit of comic relief here and there and we do need that in life.  

I thank everybody who has debated and since there is full support for the amendment, I thought at one time there would have been one saying: no! very much so and that would have been her democratic right.  In fact her expressions indicate to me that this House is really and truly and fully democratic because we allowed every member to express his or her opinion about these things and I think she has made her point that, you know, her party does not support gambling of any type but then that is not quite the question.  The question was on the amendments as such.  At the end of it all one did learn that she would support the amendment anyway.

I must express my appreciation of the expression that will come through indicating that unregulated gambling is not acceptable and that in fact it is anarchy and I support that view.

We have also been educated to some extent by a member who told us about the Mississippi experience, quite interesting I would have thought, but perhaps not particularly relevant to the amendment that we were dealing with.  It might have come very well as a lesson to some of us outside, but equally of course there could have been points that would have been said against the Mississippi experience but that is neither here nor there.

Then the issue of party funding which also received quite an interesting input from several members, that in itself was wonderful with a lot of comic relief, but it was not particularly relevant to the amendment in fact.  Altogether, I think the House has debated this fully and we are all in agreement and I am thankful to the House that the amendment is going through with virtually 100% acceptance.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Now that the debate has been finally concluded I will now put the question to the House in relation to the amendment.

THE KWAZULU-NATAL GAMBLING AMENDMENT BILL, 1997 - PASSED.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Bill has been unanimously passed and we now have the hon Premier to assent to it.  I now would love to call upon the Premier to indicate any announcements before we adjourn today's business.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, sir, I have no specific announcement other than perhaps indicating that hopefully tomorrow, it is Friday you know, hopefully tomorrow we might start at 9:00am as we usually do on Fridays and hopefully looking forward to finishing our business by roundabout lunchtime.  I thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Mr Rajbansi, you have something to say.

MR A RAJBANSI:  You have not completed that Bill.  The Secretary must read that Bill otherwise it will have no legal force and effect.  After the voting, the Secretary must read the Bill.  That is the real formal acceptance.

AN HON MEMBER:  Read the title of the Bill.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Title of the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  It looks like everybody agrees with the Rules and yourself.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Amendment Bill, 1997.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I now need to call upon all of us to agree to the adjournment of this House until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.  The House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 9 o'clock.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 16:31 UNTIL
	09:00 ON FRIDAY, 21 FEBRUARY 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	SECOND SITTING - THIRD SITTING DAY
	FRIDAY, 21 FEBRUARY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 09:10 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ULUNDI.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  
2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

The only announcement I can make is that due to a bit of ill health, Mr Speaker is not around this morning.  He may be joining us later in the day.  That is the only announcement.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, and the House.  I would like to make this errata.  "To err is human, to forgive divine".  There is an error which is really a typing error on page 13 of the speech that I made yesterday and it is with regard to the month instead of a year on the first line.  Thank you very much.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day I will move as follows:

	THAT THIS HOUSE NOTING:

	1.	The increased importance of international trade; and
	2.	The significance of good international relations between countries participating in international trade; and
	3.	The historical relationship between the major voyagers of exploration and the visiting and the giving of a name to part of our Province.

	THEREFORE RESOLVES to request the Parliament and Government of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal to participate fully and actively in the commemoration of the 500th Anniversary in 1997 of the naming of that part of South African known as Natal by the Portuguese trader and explorer Vasco Da Gama.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I just wish to point out that yesterday due to different circumstances the Speaker ruled that all motions be suspended,pending the decision of the Rules Committee on the format of motions.  If that only applied to yesterday, I am not certain, but the Rules Committee has, to the best of my knowledge, not yet met and possibly that ruling still stands just to be technically correct.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, I have a notice of motion, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I thought you were responding to what Mr Volker was saying.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Ja, but the Speaker has ruled in respect of yesterday.

AN HON MEMBER:  He did not say so.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Volker, you have put me into a predicament, because I had a different interpretation of the Speaker's ruling.  But, however, since you have brought it to my attention I will then decide to interpret the Speaker's decision in exactly the same manner that you are suggesting now.  If that is the understanding that the Speaker ruled that motions be suspended until the Rules Committee has given guidelines on what could be regarded as a motion and what could be regarded as a non-motion, then maybe I should also make a similar ruling today.

I am therefore ruling that motions are suspended until the Rules Committee have given us that directive.  Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, in the light of your ruling and in light of the ruling yesterday of which I was not aware, I will withdraw the motion I have moved this morning and move it on another occasion.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Mr Meer.

MR I C MEER:  That ruling of yesterday and the ruling of today, both are flawed unless a time limit is fixed.  We may find that the Committee may not meet for another five years, but if you tell them to meet within a certain time then they are bound by the decision of this Legislature.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I do not have the parliamentary programme in front of me, but to the best of my recollection there is a Rules Committee meeting scheduled for 5 March.  I might be slightly out on the date but there is definitely one scheduled in the near future.  I checked with Mr Mbuyazi as a result of yesterday morning's decision.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It still does not solve my problem, Mrs Cronje.  Thank you for that information nonetheless.  I will therefore, in line with what Mr Meer is saying, rule that the report must come to this House at the next sitting, the decision of the Rules Committee.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

MR V A VOLKER:  I am sorry to intervene again, but yesterday due to a technical oversight apparently, certain questions of which proper notice had been given were not placed on the Order Paper, and the Speaker yesterday gave a ruling that those questions, of which proper notice had been given previously and to which we were given an assurance that the replies were available, that those would be dealt with this morning.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  To assist myself I will therefore request that the Chief Whip co-ordinates with the other Whips to see how to deal with that matter.  In the meantime I am going to proceed in relation to debating this issue because I really do not even have a clue of how many questions there are.  If necessary, and after co-ordinating with the Whips, I may be able to fit in those questions somewhere.  I do not know how because the Rules are clear.  The Rules are clear on that issue.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Can I make a point?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  That if there is an oversight in the printing of the Order Paper, it requires an unopposed motion to put that item on the Order Paper, and I will not oppose it for the sake of democracy.  I know when I speak people get worried about democracy.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, between the Whips we will attempt to get our hands on those questions.  We will then liaise with you, Mr Speaker, and perhaps you could slot it in at the end of today's proceedings when the next item is concluded.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Tarr, and I hope that satisfies those members whose questions have not been answered and we are hoping will be answered today.  Thank you very much for that.

8.1	DEBATE ON THE PREMIER'S ADDRESS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Opening the debate will be Minister Zuma for 12 minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, could I just point out something to you please.  Where it states 12 minutes next to Mr Zuma's name, I think there is an omission.  There should have appeared on the Speaker's list in brackets next to the 12 minutes, "suggested time", and I think the same applies to the hon Premier, because both the hon Minister and the hon Premier are unrestricted in time.  So the Whips did put in brackets next to their times, "suggested time".

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you for that rectification.  Mr Bartlett.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, I find this a most unusual request.  The Premier's speech and the debate thereon should be the equivalent of a no-confidence debate.  That is a no-confidence debate in the Premier and his Cabinet which is the Government of this Province.  I find it very, very strange to hear a member of the Government now saying that her leader should have unlimited time in addition to the Premier in order to defend the Premier's debate.  I find it most unusual.  This is the Government and the Premier and his Government we now are debating.  So I find this most unusual, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I please have order.  Order please.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can you resume your seat, Mrs Cronje.  I do not intend for us to have a debate on this.  This matter has been discussed time and again and it has been pointed out that in terms of the agreed Rules, the leader of the next biggest party has unlimited time.  That is the Rule of this House and therefore I think the way I interpret Mrs Cronje's intervention, was that it should have reflected on this list of speakers that these are the suggested times.  It is a technical correction.  I do not think it is any principle correction.  So can we then proceed with Minister Zuma.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism Trade and Industry):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I would like to say from the outset that the address by the Premier in this session has been indeed a unique one if, in particular it is viewed from a certain context regarding the life of our Province, the life of the IFP as an organisation and more importantly, the relationship between the IFP and the ANC.

I would therefore appreciate it if my colleagues in this House will view my contribution and debate this morning as I discuss the Premier's address with the understanding of these factors.  I have just indicated above, that is to say, the life of the Province, the life of the IFP as a party and the relationship that exists between the IFP and the ANC.

I will certainly, as I speak, probably emphasise on the third factor for I believe strongly that the life of this Province does, to a large degree, depend on the relation that these two organisations have.  Which direction this Province takes, whether it is a negative direction or a positive direction, it will depend in the main on the relationship of these two organisations.  This is a political reality that no one can wish away.

I would therefore also hope that the members of these two parties are aware of this fact and more aware than other people in the Province.  This will apply more to the leadership of the two organisations, for if we are aware of this important fact we would then certainly be aware of the enormous responsibility that goes with this understanding.  Put in simple terms, it is a responsibility to lead this Province to peace, stability and economic development and prosperity.

I am saying this because the message of this Province in 1994 as well as in 1996 was heard loud and clear as they voted for these two parties, that the majority of the citizens of this Province have placed confidence in the IFP and the ANC in the main.

I am emphasising it again because what has been talked about in this Province as political violence has tended to reside between these two organisations.  They therefore have a greater responsibility to the majority and to everybody in this Province.

It is with this in mind that I thought I need to premise my remarks this morning, particularly on the occasion that the Premier whose address we are discussing has made his very last address in this Legislature.  We shall view it with all the seriousness it deserves.

It is our view that the Premier's address has been balanced and has raised issues that are pertinent to all of us as political leaders in this Province, and for some good reasons has not raised any controversial issue, but has raised issues that I think by and large we are agreed on.

We would therefore, because we agree with many of the issues, not go into greater detail, because what is left in the main is really to underline what the Premier said, we believe will leave all of us with something to work on.

I believe that having worked together in this Government up to now, many of the critical issues that the Premier talked about are issues we have debated at all levels.  At the Cabinet level, at our caucuses and in this Legislature and they have a broader agreement among ourselves.

One of these issues highlighted in the speech was the issue of good governance and our commitment to clean up the administration.  These are the issues we have debated a number of times.

The Premier organised a Cabinet workshop or Ingweyizana that discussed this issue a great deal, and later had another one where good governance had to reflect many things, including our approach to the economic growth and made it a watertight kind of approach.  It was taken down to the DDGs, to all the departments in the Government.  That to me has been an indication of our intention but more importantly of our agreement as to how we should govern this Province.  There has been no difference on this one.  We have agreed in totality.

I believe it is again reflected in the speech of the Premier that the introduction of the KwaZulu-Natal Performance Bill is again another added value to this approach we have undertaking as a Province.

As my colleague the Minister of Finance and Agriculture, yesterday indicated how much this helps to ensure that good governance does not remain theory, but it becomes a practical thing, this particular piece of legislation will be a measurement to show whether we are indeed practising good governance or not.  These are the issues we have debated and agreed on.

Important again, raised in the statement has been the issue of the growth and development strategy as an approach to our economic process in the Province.  Again here we have agreed.  From the outset the Premier and myself worked very closely on this.  We have organised jointly very important workshops.  We have indeed engaged Government structures to debate and elucidate the details of this approach.  We have engaged the private sector and all the stakeholders in the Province with our belief and emphasis that partnership was the best method to be adopted to produce a Government that is not living under criticisms continuously.

Again on this we have agreed and it is a critical point insofar as it aims at changing the quality of life of our people.  It aims at targeting poverty.  It is through this approach that we believe all stakeholders in the Province will find a place to contribute and participate in the good and prosperity of the Province.  These are matters we have enjoyed debating and discussing with the Premier.

I thought they were important to be underlined in this debate.  The Premier referred to violence which I will come to later, particularly giving statistics as to the kind of experiences we had last year.  How many massacres and how many deaths compared to the year before last which was an indication that the problem of violence still remains.  We still have a task to undertake to eradicate violence in our Province.  Again the responsibility largely lies with the IFP and the ANC.  That is why I emphasised at the beginning the importance of these two organisations, understanding the responsibility they have.

By so saying I am not excluding other players or political parties.  They certainly have a role to play and they have played a role, but their role will always be a role to help and support the efforts that these two parties undertake.

If you talk about the percentage of people who have died as a result of political violence certainly the IFP and ANC will count more.  Indeed it is a fact that at the end of the day the conflict that produces more deaths and violence will only emerge from these two political parties and therefore they do have a responsibility to ensure that they lead us into a different direction.

Peace therefore becomes a critical factor, that again the Premier talked about.  How do we bring about peace, to ensure that all the good things that we talk about, the good governance, the performance, stability, economic growth etcetera, how do they all succeed if there was still violence and there was no peace?  Perhaps one of the critical responsibilities facing all of us is to ensure that we have peace, total peace.

One of the issues that the Premier referred to, and perhaps I will come back to it because I believe among other things that we might still feel the Premier could border around these, is the question of displacees in the Province.  In other words, as other people call it, internal refugees who have come as a result of violence.

Out there, there are people who feel aggrieved, who have been away from their places for a number of years because of violence, who therefore understand our efforts of peace and are aiming at solving their own problems.  That if their problems are not yet resolved, to them peace is theory.  They will only feel that there is peace and stability when they are back in their places in the first instance and secondly, they have a roof over their head.

We, as Government, have a responsibility to ensure that the displacees' programme therefore is vigorously pursued so that our people in the Province, all of them, are in a position to say, "We can enjoy this freedom".  It is our responsibility, nobody else can do it.

Many people are ready to help us, but they are waiting to see whether if we say we want to resettle our communities that were displaced by violence are we not going to displace them again.  They want to see that certainty, that assurance.  If they are convinced we can, they are ready to help us.  The problem would be easier than perhaps we think.

I thought these were some of the issues that needed to be highlighted in the speech of the Premier, because they are important.  I think as Government we ought to take into account and actually say what do we do to ensure that these good ideas are put into practice for the good of our Province and for the good of our people.

Mr Speaker, perhaps you will also allow me to touch on some of the points that I believe are important in this debate.

I have often said this Province has something that no other province has.  That is the number of parties in this Legislature.  That emphasises the multi-party democracy as a system we are using in our country, that KwaZulu-Natal has indeed this, which I believe used appropriately, we could in fact become a shining example in this country.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism Trade and Industry):  It is a question of how do we utilise it.  Again it is a question of whether we understand that we have something as an advantage in our hand.  Those who have observed the workings of this Parliament will agree that we have indeed shown we understand and we exercise the multi-party system here.

I recall when we debated very strenuously in committees and in the Legislature and in bilaterals the issue of the Provincial Constitution.  No one can say if we did not understand, we came to understand how important it was and how important all of the parties were within the Legislature.

I have always felt good about the workings of the Government of Provincial Unity in KwaZulu-Natal.  I think adding to the element I have just spoken about we have worked here and again the Premier has played a role as an individual, a role that I think has been noticed by many in the workings of the Provincial Government of Unity.

I think you will all agree that he has a style that has made all of us feel confident.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism Trade and Industry):  In his workings in the Province here, as a leader and one of the important leaders of the IFP, as a leader of Government, as a Premier, he has underlined many important things and probably shown some example.

I have often referred to him as a pilot who will never land his aircraft without the wheels being let out at all material times.  I believe this would apply to his own leadership within his organisation, to his relationship with many of us.  He is therefore a kind of a pilot that even if you disagreed with the direction he was taking, at least you were sure that there will be some soft landing.  [LAUGHTER]  
HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism Trade and Industry):  I have had the opportunity to work with the Premier on a number of times and you will allow me, Mr Speaker, just to say a few things, because I think they are important as he bows out of the stage, of the high political profile.

As you will recall we started working more closely from 1990 as we tried to deal with the violence in the Province between the IFP and the ANC, and ended up working in a committee called "12 a aside", which met in different places and discussed many things and achieved many things.  I worked with him at a national level as he was leading the delegation of the IFP at Codesa and at the Multi-party Democracy at the World Trade Centre.

Observing and seeing him in action, I think all will agree that he did lead his delegation with dignity, even if you disagreed with points, but you did not feel out of place because you thought you were discussing with a person who will understand and appreciate your point and put his point of view across and put it responsibly.  I think these are the kind of leaders we need to learn from.

We almost at one time became the fire extinguishers in the Province, moved into very angry crowds of both the IFP and the ANC, walked in rains, drove in muddy places in an attempt to bring peace in this Province.

Whilst I respected the then chairman of the IFP, but I think my respect was different as we worked together, when I saw his commitment and honesty and the manner in which he tackled issues.  You did not doubt when you worked with him.  Whatever you discussed was taken seriously and I know standing as I do, that it was not easy.  Angry supporters of the IFP and the ANC did not see things always the same as the leaders did.

It might have been referred to by ANC supporters with names and certainly I would want to suspect that IFP members at the lower level at one time must have said Nyanda is selling us out and therefore we did not know which way to go.  The ANC supporters would be saying, "What do you want here?" and the IFP supporters would be saying, "But where is he going to?"  So we did not know where to go.  It needed a safer pilot to land, to choose the spot to land and land appropriately.  Indeed he showed that he was a man of integrity and I think everybody has accepted that.

I believe the speech that he delivered indicated what type of a colleague we have been with and who is the person and what perhaps we should expect from him.  But let me say at this very point, I think it is appropriate to say that our colleague, the incoming Premier and now the national chairman of the IFP, Dr Ben Ngubane, is again no stranger to us.

He is a man we have worked with and a man who has established his own integrity in his own right as a leader.  I want to say in the Committee of 12 or twelve-a-side that I talked about, he was always there with others.  Many of the IFP leaders who are not here, some of them are at the national level, were part of that Committee and one of them is late now, the colleague Steve Sithebe who was part of the initial discussions with whom we signed the Lower Umfolozi Accord.  So our colleague Ben as well is no stranger.

We are therefore saying as Nyanda bows out, coming in is yet another son of this Province we believe would continue where Nyanda left.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism Trade and Industry):  We believe and, as we have said, on the issue of individual players within teams or collectives, that Mbomvu has also shown his own potential as he was a Minister at the National level, of Arts and Culture and again as he has come back to the Province how much we are going to be working together.

So as much as we say to Nyanda farewell insofar as the Legislature and other levels and welcoming our colleague, we are confident that the programmes that are in place that I have just tabulated, will be carried out by our colleague as we expect.

We believe that the outgoing Premier can still play a role.  Leaving the Legislature we do not believe is the end of the road, otherwise we would be saying our members who are not in Legislatures have got no role to play.  I did not hear that he was resigning from the IFP because if he did so the cart would be ready for him to come back home.  [LAUGHTER]

We believe that Nyanda still has a role to play in the life of the IFP as an organisation as well as in the life of the Province, particularly in areas that I articulated.  We would want to see him playing some role at the economic level, for I know that many business people have confidence in him and I think if he disappeared they might think there is something wrong.

I believe that in the peace efforts he could still play a role, probably with more time, use his experience to ensure that the programmes of Government of both political parties are indeed vigorously implemented.  The programme of the displacees perhaps we might, as a Government, agree that we need to give him some work taking into account his health, but knowing that the load is not going to be as it was.  I believe we could still find something for Nyanda to do in the Province.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism Trade and Industry):  To you, my brother, our colleague, we are grateful for your contribution that you have made whilst you were with us, for your leadership in this House, in the Province.  You have been a good colleague, a good leader, a good son of KwaZulu-Natal Province and a good son of South Africa.  We are certain that we will still be with you in our political work and political life.

To us therefore, you are merely changing stages, moving away from the most prominent to the stages that are not that prominent but still playing a role, still finding your place to help in the running of life of this Province.

We therefore say, and I believe it is the feeling of all of us in the House, that we are saying goodbye but we are not saying goodbye at the same time because we are going to be with you.  Goodbye insofar as the responsibilities are concerned but insofar as you being part of us we are going to be with you and will work with you.

I thought it was important to highlight some of these points because we have worked very closely.  To me in particular, I felt very close working with you and I believe we will still continue working together.  I believe, knowing your colleagues in the IFP as I do now, what I say I think will indeed hold, that we will still be working together as parties that have a serious responsibility in this Province.  It is in our hands, nobody else, and when I say you are moving away, we are not putting you outside, we are saying you are part of a collective leadership.

We will be expecting your wise counselling when you have got time to reflect on these matters to be with us and advise and where we request you to help and to participate.

Mr Speaker, with those words I would like to stop my words by saying hamba kahle Nyanda siyobe sinawe, thank you. [We greet you Nyanda, you will still be with us].

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Zuma.  I now call upon Mr Gwala for eight minutes.

MR M B GWALA:  Mr Speaker, and the hon House.  The eloquent speech made by the Premier, the hon Dr Mdlalose, has widened our thought and cautioned us to work together as a team of parliamentarians, regardless of our political persuasions because we are the servants of all the people of this Province and South Africa as a whole.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR M B GWALA:  The people out there are expecting a better and a healthier social and economic life.  I wish to discuss at least two problems which are a threat to our Premier's desire to bring about peace and stability, on the one hand, and to promote economic growth on the other.

The real problem facing South Africa and this Province in particular is unresolved constitutional matters.  We have pretended as politicians that all the people of this country have accepted all the principles contained in a document drafted by the Constituent Assembly as a Constitution for South Africa.  A new Constitution for South Africa will be rewritten, even after a century from now and the 1996 Constitution will be subjected to extensive amendments and repeals with the aim of improving a far worse document than the flawed interim Constitution of 1993.

As long as the Ubukosi Institution, the Kingdom of KwaZulu-Natal, the role of Amakhosi and the status of His Majesty, the King is not enshrined in the Constitution, the people of KwaZulu-Natal will continue to fight for their freedom.  The King and the Zulu nation are not free at all.  We will serve under this Constitution in a similar manner as our forefathers and our parents served under the past Constitutions such as the 1910 Constitution, the 1961 Constitution which were all rammed down our throats in the same way as the 1993 interim Constitution and 1996 Constitution.  Amakhosi and their subjects are the victims of all these Constitutions for South Africa.

There is no hope that the KwaZulu-Natal Constitution will ever come into existence because of the communist element infiltrating political parties and organisations, with the sole aim of dismantling KwaZulu, like the dreams of Sir Bartle Frere during the British colonial administration.

Black leaders including those who are here in this House, who believe that the freedom we were fighting for has been attained, are seriously mistaken and are completely out of step.  These uninformed leaders need to be reminded that what brought South Africa to the 1994 general elections, was the complete eradication of apartheid, nothing more and nothing less.

I must also remind you that the wars that were fought by our kings and our forefathers such as those who fought in 1838 with the Boers, and those who fought in 1879 with the British army were not caused by the apartheid laws but were actually activated by land greed.

You can bear me out, Mr Speaker, that the issue of 87% of land owned by the White minority group and 13% of land owned by the Black majority has not been resolved even now.  That is what our forefathers fought for and died for.

The people of KwaZulu-Natal will die for the restoration of the kingdom.  The IFP will support them and above all, the IFP will resist and vigorously resist until we get our federal South Africa in place.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR M B GWALA:  The history of this great nation teaches us that our forbears found it heroic and found it noble to die on the site for their principles and convictions.  That is why they resolved to bite the bullet and grab the British Martini Henry hand assault rifle with their bare hands.

The people of South Africa must hear us and take us seriously when we tell them that we are forced to live under a Constitution that will make us slaves once more, in the land of our birth.  These are sensitive matters which need to be addressed forthwith otherwise political tension, instability, disorder and political intolerance will haunt us for years.

The second issue which is related to the latter is a problem of certain politicians in this House, whose political agendas are aimed at driving this House to an unknown destination.  These politicians are working in cahoots with the media to tarnish the image of others while promoting their own interests.

There is a concerted effort in targeting Ulundi.  I have been observing in amazement how Ulundi is being targeted as a corrupt place compared to other places.  The reporting attitude adopted by certain journalists, particularly even Yvonne Grimbeek is incredible.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can the hon member come to a close.

MR M B GWALA:  This tall beautiful lady has turned the Mercury into a mouthpiece of those organisations against the IFP, and the newspaper is used as a political weapon to tarnish the image of the IFP led Government and portray the departments headed by the IFP Minister as corrupt.  Her anti-Inkatha stance no doubt proves the fact that she has been hoodwinked by their political propaganda.

A wrong impression is being created to the public that Ulundi and its people are corrupt to the extreme.

For example, if one reads the article in the Mercury dated 7 February 1997 it was reported that 72 flats were again renovated and refurbished at a cost of R3m, when the actual amount spent for refurbishing the flats was a mere R865 000.  For Grimbeek to tell the public that an amount of R3m was spent is similar to the blue lies made by an hon member of the Democratic Party, Mr Roger Burrows, that the Secretary of this Parliament bought nine cattle for an amount of R52 734,17 instead of R7 650,00.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I do not say that corruption must not be exposed but I am concerned about the fact that it is all the time given prominence when it occurs in Ulundi and not in other places.  Renovations and burglaries took place in the Pietermaritzburg offices but nothing has been said.  The same applies to the National Parliament where computers were stolen between 1994 and 1996 but it was given no such publicity.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The time is up for the hon member.

MR M B GWALA:  I close, Mr Speaker, by saying political....

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No, no, you are not closing.  You have already closed.

MR M B GWALA:  All right then.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I have actually been more generous.

MR M B GWALA:  The one who spoke before me took 22 minutes.  Thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It is the Rules.  In fact I think we must clear this.  If every member checks their Rules, Rule 67 provides for that.  In case anybody is in doubt.  Rule 67 does provide for unlimited time for the Premier, for the leader of the largest minority party and the member introducing the Bill.  That is what the Rule provides for.  So please let us not have conflict around that issue and I think members are free to make proposals to the Rules Committee for a change if that is deemed necessary.

Can we then go on to the hon Mr Schutte for seven minutes, sir.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, at the outset of this very important debate, I cannot but on behalf of the National Party pay our highest tribute to Dr Frank Mdlalose, the man, the politician, the Premier.

He is a man of absolute integrity, of warmth, of sincerity.  As a Premier he has given his all for the upliftment of this Province and all its people.  As a Premier he has transcended political differences and has always striven to promote the common good and not sectional and party interests.

As the first Premier of this Province, I believe that he has laid an excellent foundation for co-operation and progress in this Province also for the future.  We thank him for all his efforts but also for what he is.  A friend for whom we have the highest regard.  We wish him a long, a happy and a very healthy retirement.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Looking to the year ahead, I cannot but again emphasise that this Parliament must set the example for the Province.  It should run efficiently, transparently, on set times and dates.  There should be ample opportunity for questions, interpellations, debates on political matters and other matters of the day and also private member's motions.  Whatever our party political differences may be, we have to ensure that this Parliament functions and functions well.  As a party we commit ourselves to this goal and we will not be satisfied with anything but the best.

Regarding matters in general, it is clear that this Province, indeed all the provinces face a daunting challenge and that is to make a success of things, to bring prosperity to our provinces with our limited competencies, while the National Government with the bulk of the competencies is a disaster.

Despite a miracle transition, despite an international world that wants us to succeed, despite a leader that is adored internationally, this country is slipping and is slipping fast.  International investor confidence has taken a nosedive.  One can only refer to the massive devaluation of the Rand.

Crime is still rampant and is the main reason why professionals are leaving the country and why there is a lack of real investment.

Unemployment is now at record levels and getting worse, and the sad thing is that the Government is actually discouraging further employment and employment creation by introducing onerous labour legislation and land reforms, particularly with regard to agriculture.

Education is in a shambles.  The matric pass rate last year was only 54%.  In the 1980s it was at one stage 67%.  Because of the failure of Masakhane, third tier Government in many cases appears to be in crisis.  The ANC Government is in deep trouble.  It has flaunted every wild promise it has made and can no longer blame apartheid because matters have now become worse than in the heyday of apartheid.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  But there is now clear proof that the ANC knows that it is very deep in trouble.  Why should President Mandela want to co-opt the DP and the PAC to his Cabinet, when only a few months ago he and the ANC refused even a toned down version of a multi-party Cabinet?  It cannot be because he has now developed a tremendous love for the DP and for the PAC because they are relatively minor parties.

The reasons for these actions, can only be that he realises the failures of the ANC Government and that he wants to share the blame for these with other parties.  But more so, he is also very, very worried about the National Party's initiatives to consolidate and to extend opposition to the ANC.  We have not started yet and he is already showing his concern.

I believe that he has reason to be worried.  The disillusionment with the performance of the ANC and the ANC leadership is very, very high even in its own ranks.  Just look at the happenings in the Northern Province, the Free State very recently again and also Bantu Holomisa.

AN HON MEMBER:  It is happening in the National Party.

MR D SCHUTTE:  Despite all these things I believe that there is a great hope for this Province.  Look at the Western Cape.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order please.  Order! Order!

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I believe that there is great hope for this Province.  Just look at the Western Cape.  It is the one provincial success story.  It is an example of growth, prosperity, stability and confidence.  Everybody wants to move there and the reason is obvious, it is governed not by a bungling ANC but by a competent National Party.

If that Province can make it, I believe we too can make it.  I would like to argue that we must give priority to two things.  First of all, a culture of respect for law and order must be restored.  That is the fabric of society.  To achieve this we have to emphasise that crime is crime is crime, petty or major.  All laws must be respected.  All crimes must be punished.  That is the only way in which respect for law and order will be restored and we as a Province can also play a role in this regard.  It has worked in New York with its so-called Broken Window Policy, it can work here again.

Secondly, to encourage employment creation on a grand scale.  We have to find ways of exempting the small business and new jobs from onerous labour laws.

I believe that if we can solve these two problems with expedition and with commitment we will become a model Province.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order please.  Thank you, Mr Schutte.  Can we have more order.  I now call upon ~Inkosi~ ~Mdletshe~.  You have six minutes.


TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I think people should make use of learning-aids.  May I express my gratitude for this opportunity to stand in this House again.  Which is the House that we all know so well as the House in which we conquered~apartheid~.

Mr Speaker, it is again the House in which the Zulu nation fought great battles, and refused to be outwitted by other nations.  Therefore this place bears the history of conquest and triumph of our nation.  I do hope that it will accomplish this noble purpose even with the future generation.

As a person Speaker who has been outside and not in your House...T/E


TRANSLATION:  Hon member, may I ask for a moment - I do not intend to be discourteous towards you, something has gone wrong and I just want to correct it.

It looks like those who are expecting a translation are getting nothing.  Can the Secretariat please attend to that.  Is it okay?  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  T/E



TRANSLATION:  Hon member, because of the interruption we will give you the opportunity to start afresh.   T/E

Can we then have order please.


TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I think I did not express myself strongly.  I just scratched on the surface.  I thank you for the opportunity to start afresh.  Mr Speaker and hon members, I said I am grateful for this opportunity to stand in this hon House again.  Which is the House all of us know so well as the House where we conquered ~apartheid~.  Again Mr Speaker, it is the place where the Zulu nation fought great wars, and we refused to be outwitted by other nations.  This House and place holds the history of the conquest and triumph of our nation.  I hope that it will still accomplish this noble purpose even in the next generation.
	
As a person who has been outside this House Mr Speaker, we have been watching with keen interest what has been happening in your House.  I wish to state that we have been reading in newspapers and hearing from news sources that there were serious deliberations going on here.

That makes us, as the masses, lose hope and realize that the violence and the killing of one another is still going to continue.  That influenced us badly, Mr Speaker.  We know very well the outcome of provocative speeches, they can be the death of one person or the death of our nation.  Nevertheless on the other side are indications that efforts are afoot to end violence amongst our people.

I see signs of friendship, there is also laughing with one another among hon members.  That is a good sign.  I wonder how one can disseminate that speedily.  I appreciated the peace initiatives which are handled by the Peace Committee in these districts which were mentioned in the speech of the Premier of this Province.

I think we should emphasize what was said by His Majesty the King and the Premier at the opening ceremony of Parliament.  But Mr Speaker, true peace can only be achieved through humanity (ubuntu) integrity accompanied by unity, co-operation, reconciliation, confession that is what our people understand better.

I agree entirely Mr Speaker, hon members that we have attained freedom to elect our leaders.  But we should struggle to liberate our people from ignorance, disease, poverty and starvation which are the actual enemies of mankind.

Because I am anxious, that if we do not take this direction our freedom will be meaningless and this will be followed by the overthrow of the State, which is a common occurrence in our vast Continent of Africa.

Mr Speaker, it is my fervent wish that all the structures of Community development could be disseminated adequately and satisfactorily for the benefit of the nation.  It is my wish, to express my gratitude towards this region of KwaZulu-Natal for the way the elections for Local Government went through.

I am also grateful for the good arrangement that the ~Amakhosi~ be full participants in these Government structures.  So that the combination process of elected members and the ~Amakhosi~ in the development of mankind could be well accomplished, in that way avoid any conflict.

I also think that the warning by the King about the defence for the ~Amakhosi~ should be heeded by all the political parties in this Province and the whole of South Africa.

I feel the time has now come Mr Speaker, to stop saying by word of mouth that we are fond of the ~Amakhosi~.  We also wish to say that we wish that they should be protected as it was the case initially.  The time has come that all this should be depicted in action as it is said that actions speak louder than words.

Mr Speaker, with these words, brief as they are, I submit as my maiden speech in the House.  I thank you.   T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you very much from Inkosi.  I now call upon Mr Burrows.  You have five minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the House, I think we would like to congratulate the member on his maiden address to the House.  He had much wisdom in it.  He had certain elements that we could disagree with but much, most if I may say, that we would agree with.  Well done.

I also need to indicate that Mr Moorcroft who is speaking later is not speaking as a DP member but was asked by Mr Jeffery Bhengu to deliver a message in this House on behalf of the six permanent representatives in the NCOP, and will thus be speaking in that capacity.

I was unfortunately not able to be present yesterday but I have had the opportunity of both reading the address of the hon the Premier and discussing the matter with my two colleagues who were present.  I would like to join in the remarks made concerning the position of the Premier.  He may be retiring but he is not a retiring person and we would like to congratulate him on the work that he has done, on the position that he has held.  As the one person in this House who has had the opportunity of moving a motion of no-confidence in the Premier and his Cabinet, somewhat earlier in the life of this Parliament when the people on my right, were still in the Government.  I wish him well.  The NP tend to think that now they have never been in the Government.  They were part of the Government then, the National Party as with the ANC and yourselves.  It was fascinating in that debate how all three parties pointed fingers at each other and said, "No, it is not our responsibility", but one must look only at the Constitution to see where the question of collective responsibility lies. 

May I just also emphasise, that the hon the Premier has held a commitment to public office over a very considerable time.  We have known him, some of us in this House, only for a relatively short time, some two and three-quarter years, but his experience goes much further than that and it goes very deep in the paths cut into this Province.

In that connection I would like to quote as he ended his speech yesterday with a fairly long quote from poetry, I would wish to do the same.  Mine is from, probably appropriately in KwaZulu-Natal, from a colonial poet of the late 19th Century and it concerns the man himself.

	"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you
	If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you but make allowance for their doubting too
	If you can wait and not be tired of waiting or being lied about, don't deal in lies
	Or being hated, don't give way to hating and yet don't look too good nor talk too wise.
	And if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same
	If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue or walk with kings nor lose the common touch
	If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you
	If all men count with you but none too much
	If you can fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run, yours is the earth and everything in it and you are a man, my son."

May I wish the Premier, on behalf of the Democratic Party, a long, a healthy and a peaceful retirement.

There are a couple of matters that arose during the course of the Premier's address yesterday that I would wish to address.  One has been touched on by the hon Mr Gwala and that is the question of corruption.

I just want to make Mr Gwala aware that we are the party that singled out, for example, the corruption that occurred regarding the Premier's office in Durban.  We raised the matter of the Premier's office in Truro House in Durban.  The DP has raised in the Durban Metro Council the question of R450 000,00 being spent on the security guards for the Metro and South Council Mayors.  We are the party that raised Sarafina 2 and the corruption and fraud that might have been associated with that.

So we just want Mr Gwala to realise that not only are we not singling out Ulundi, we are making quite sure that Ulundi gets the same treatment as everybody else.  That is the point we want to make.  That if there is one thing that has got to be said about non-racialism it is that you do not hit a person because of his colour but neither do you not restrain yourself because of their colour.

So if people are inefficient and fraudulent we do not care what colour they are or what party they belong to, we will point fingers and ask questions and we will continue to do so.  Let us always remember, and I am sure the Cabinet is always remembering this, there is no such thing as Government money.  It is the taxpayer's money and the taxpayer will demand that every Rand spent, whether it is going into the pockets of members of the Provincial Parliament or whether it is being paid to civil servants, is correctly spent.  Theft and fraud yes, we must watch but we must watch also the stealing of time and the padding of staff.

The second matter is crime and I am glad the Premier has looked at reducing crime because it is the first responsibility of the State.

Mr Speaker, I know my time is running out.  Five minutes is not much.  Let me also say, because there are other matters that will come up, that in terms of the traditional authority experience I think that we can possibly look at the experience of Africa with great wisdom.  There is a gap between those two parties (ANC and IFP) and my party as well in terms of traditional authorities in South Africa.  So let us look at the African experience, let us go out and let us all learn a lot.

I will continue this debate on various matters in the next sitting.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, Mr Burrows.  You have six minutes, Mr Meer.

MR I C MEER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  History has placed the Premier Frank Mdlalose in a very important position.  History will record that when the Pharaoh, who had shifted his original place from North Africa to the South of this continent under apartheid and that Pharaoh was destroyed.  The people from this part of the world had to be led to their freedom and out of bondage.  We had people at the national and provincial levels to carry out that task.  Constitutionally, that task was placed on the shoulders of the hon Dr Frank Mdlalose.  History salutes you Mr Premier in carrying out that task in the way you have done.  We are proud of your position in history, a position which will be remembered by generations to come just as we remember the Pharaoh of Egypt was destroyed and Moses led the people into the promised land.  We have still got to get there.

Let me remind you that when Moses struck that blow at the tyrant Egyptian and killed him not a single pacifist, not a single person including Mahatma Gandhi ever said that that blow was of violence or struck for the wrong cause.  It was struck for the cause of liberty, and humanity has continued to praise that powerful blow struck, and humanity has continued to remember that great event because it was struck for the right cause, for liberty.  Not to have struck that blow would have been an act of cowerdice.

I remember Frank Mdlalose as a young student in the 50s.  Yes, sir, then we had dreams.  We dreamt that this country would one day become free of racism, and I am proud of the fact that this is nepotism, proud of the fact that as my brother Dr Mdlalose had the proud privilege to lead this Legislature away from the land of bondage towards the promised land.  It is a long walk to freedom.  We have not reached our destination.  In that road a very important milestone was reached under your leadership, and we are proud of the role that you have played in leading all of us because that is the historic task that was placed upon you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR I C MEER:  I speak as His Majesty's member of Loyal Opposition.  My duty in that capacity is to attack constructively everything that comes from the ruling political party and the righteous political opposition party.  That is my task.  Constructive criticism.  But you sir, have spoken in this document not on behalf of an individual, you have spoken on the fourth most powerful ring of our heritage and that is "unity in Government".  We abandoned "divided and rule" and we adopted "unit and govern" as a powerful heritage from the time of Shaka, the first circle in which all who spoke one language were united.

The next step was that of the Reverend John L Dube who said no matter what language you spoke, if you are most oppressed and you are part of the African community, you are one solid group.

Then came Luthuli who said no matter what colour to which you belong, if you believe in democracy you are going to be one (part of that third important circle of unity).  And you, sir, led us to the fourth circle, that is the Government of National Unity and the Government of Provincial Unity.  You speak in this document as Premier on behalf of the entire executive.

We as members of the Legislature have a duty to see that the executive is kept in check.  In this Legislature we are privileged to allow you to sit with us as an executive member.  In America you would not be sitting with us.  The dividing line between the executive and the Legislature is very thin, in our Legislature.

Our task is also to see that within that executive we do not allow conditions which were allowed in Europe.

The birth of Mussolini, the birth of Hitler and even the birth of Stalin came from the executive with greater powers than they should have had.  You have given us a picture of your executive here proudly.  It is an executive worthy of respect because it is rooted in the tradition of which I have just spoken.  That is the three philosophies which bind us.  We have had the philosophy of Tawhid, a cosmic unity.  Only if you understand that unity, can understand the unity of the Maker who is one and indivisible.  And so is the indivisible unity of all Creation.  Humanity is one.

Secondly, you have given us the unity of Ahimsa.  Gandhi developed this on the soil of South Africa.  Without peace there could be no real unity, says Ahimsa.

Thirdly, which is indigenous, this document, speaks volumes of "Ubuntu", as no other document I have read in recent times has spoken of Ubuntu.  The powerful tradition that comes to us from our own heritage and says that tolerance is essential for unity, essential for peace, it is essential for human relationship.  And from that point of view, sir, we salute you and we say that in this historic period you have played your role as powerfully as you could, and I say physician heal thyself.

Not a single word here shows me any shortage in you in respect of diabetes or of old age.  You are as young and youthful as when we took the pledge together over 40 years ago that this land shall be free, and now you have reached that destination.  You have made me free.

Even more important is the fact that you not only liberated those who were oppressed, but you were at the head of that Government which liberated the oppressors who can come in this Parliament today and tell us in the expression of the Hindi language that ~"Ek so chooha khaker Billy kaasi chali"~.  After devouring millions of mice the cat now stands up in this Parliament to say, "I am a vegetarian".  Very difficult to believe that.  [LAUGHTER]  Very difficult to believe that.

With all the burden of apartheid on them, for them to come and talk of democracy!  We say please respect our integrity and respect our logic, we shall not accept that too readily from you.  ~"Ek so chooha khaker Billy kaasi chali"~.  No, that cat remains the feline and can never become a vegetarian.  But let the cat keep trying.

I say to you, Mr Speaker sir, that in this great tradition of our past, with your permission, let us rise and pay tribute to this man for the great work that he has done in the name of unity of our people.  Let us show Parliament's greatest respect by giving him a standing ovation that he deserves.  We show respect from each one and every one of us.  [APPLAUSE]  Let us rise and show as we have never done before in this Parliament that this is deserving, not only a salute for him, but to the people of this Province who are proud of the fact that we have reached this important milestone in the ultimate freedom of our people.

Thank you indeed.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Meer, there are many coups that I have learnt of but I have never experienced one until today.  Thank you for that little bit of a coup.  It is an experience.  Mr Bartlett, you were just about to say something.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, much has been said about the hon Premier.  Time is limited for me and I would like to associate myself with everything that has been said in regard to the way he has led this Province and especially what my hon leader has said.

I believe that I know the Premier fairly closely because we have worked together in various capacities over quite a number of years, more than two years in his Cabinet, so I believe I do have the authority to say that he is one of nature's real gentlemen.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR G S BARTLETT:  I have appreciated very much the way he has led us, his humour, his sincerity and his basic goodliness.  I am sure every one of us wish both him and his very gracious lady a very long and happy retirement.  We shall miss them both.

The hon Premier and indeed the hon Minister of Economic Affairs both raised the matter of good governance.  I am happy to say that I was party to the Cabinet discussions both in Cabinet and then later with the Director-General and the secretaries of the Government.  I was party to those discussions on good governance and I would like to say that I believe that the programme for good governance is vital for the future of this Province, not only this Province but also of the nation as a whole.  The programme clearly enunciates what should be done.

The question, I believe, that must be answered is, are we achieving the required quality of good governance at this time, not only of this Province but also in the nation as a whole?  I would like to submit that we are not.  My hon leader has said that South Africa is slipping, and I believe that if we have the future of our nation at heart, and if it is our intention to drag this nation out of poverty, so as to give it the great future it should have, then we have got to first acknowledge that it is slipping.

Good governance depends on two vital and irreplaceable ingredients.  I would like to refer to the first which is competence and the second which is commitment.

Competence in the form of leadership, in the form of management and of technological expertise and systems.  Commitment of the human spirit.  This Province and this nation I believe have, or should I say had, the first ingredient that is, competence which I regret to say is being eroded away, at a time when it should have been built upon and expanded, so that we could get the necessary level of competence to take this nation into the first world, so that we can become a winning nation.

The poor governance of KwaZulu-Natal and the RSA is failing South Africa at the present time.  The policies of prematurely retiring many irreplaceable competent officials, of destroying the career paths of others, of nepotism, of placing on the gravy train jobs for pals, is destroying the competence of our public sector and is also haemorrhaging public funds through sheer waste, fraud and corruption.

Consider the debacle of the chief executive officers of the Mpumalanga Development Corporation, which has since had to be closed down, and of Transnet.  Consider the waste and incompetence and huge losses of the South African Broadcasting Corporation, of Sarafina.  Consider the intrigue around the debacle of Terror Lekota and Bantu Holomisa.  The rot has set in, Mr Speaker, and the writing is on the wall and the only hope is the rise of a new opposition in due course.

Now I would like to turn to the second essential ingredient for success and that is the commitment of the human spirit.  The hon the Premier spoke about the important ingredient of good governance, namely the work ethic and the need that this ethic should be instilled within all Government officials.

I go further, this must be instilled in the mind of all our citizens, right through to students at school.  But is it being done?  There are other ethics such as integrity and respect.  Respect for others, respect for this Parliament, respect for law and order, respect for people's rights.  We have had three of our black members shot dead in the last few months because they chose to join the National Party.  One young woman shot dead in her home and three of their homes were burnt down.  Where is the respect?  In one incident one of the attackers was a policeman.  This is the new South Africa under the present Government.

We need a commitment from all people, from public servants, from students, from workers, all to achieve that commitment of the human spirit that will enable us to rise out of the poverty in which many South Africans find themselves.

Today that is not the case.  Crime is rife, murder and rape is common place, children cheat at examines and the teachers are part of the cheating process.  Vast numbers of motorists disobey the road traffic laws; taxi drivers are a law unto themselves; citizens ignore their responsibilities and do not pay their rates and taxes and why has this happened?  It is the policies of the ANC, Communist Party, Cosatu alliance that brought it about.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member must wind up.

MR G S BARTLETT:  They sowed the wind and South Africa is now reaping the whirlwind.  They said let us have an arms struggle, the IFP said no.  Today we have violence and political assassinations.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Your time is up.

MR G S BARTLETT:  It was they who promoted the so-called liberation before education.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Now we have an undereducated lost generation and our education system is in a shambles.  It is they, sir, who said make South Africa ungovernable, through the non-payment of rates etc., and now ...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order.  Hon member, is that defiance?

MR G S BARTLETT:  I beg your pardon?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Is that defiance?

MR G S BARTLETT:  Sorry, Sir?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Are you defying this, hon member, because I have been calling that your time is up.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Oh my time is up?  You see, Mr Speaker, I have notes of the members who spoke and when their time was up and you did not stop them.  So, the truth hurts, Mr Speaker.  I will sit down.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  No, but I have actually been generous with you as well.  I have not given you four minutes.  You have not spoken for four minutes.

MR G S BARTLETT:  I beg your pardon?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am saying the hon member has not spoken for four minutes.  I did not stop the hon member at four minutes.

MR G S BARTLETT:  You stopped me at four minutes?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No, definitely not.  Just count.  Ask your colleagues to count for you.  It was not four minutes, definitely.  So I have not been biased.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you from the hon member.  Can I just give this indication.  One of the reasons why I was a little bit flexible when members were speaking, was firstly because we are debating the Premier's address and I think it is an important debate and therefore I did not want to be unreasonable in terms of time.  I, however, ...

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, could I speak to you just on that? 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can the hon member sit down whilst I am speaking.  I, however, also wish that the hon members must respect that.  They must respect it by returning the favour by not really being unreasonably long.  I am hoping that we will work in that spirit.  It is a debate.  There is no strict times but at the same time please can the hon members stick to their allocated times as far as possible.  Thank you.  With that in mind, Mr Rajbansi, you have four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  On behalf of the Minority Front I want to say thank you to our Premier.  We salute you.  We salute you because you have always stood as an individual above the self, above party politics and above petty party politics.

When the Democratic Party once moved a motion of no-confidence against you, I publicly stated in this chamber that we cannot support a vote of censure against you because in your entire career, as a politician and the period when you were not a politician there is no record of any unkind words coming out of your mouth.  That is why the salute which our elder, the hon Mr I C Meer, has led on behalf of everyone in this Province is something which we all unreservedly support.

All I can say simply, that with all the experiences with the Joint Executive Authority that when you were appointed the Premier of this Province every community, whether they were majority or minority could relax, because we said our Province is safe in your hands.

We can now also say that in respect of your successor we are proud of the fact that the Province is still safe in the hands of your successor.

When the greatest democracy in this universe got independence in 1947 those who had to hand over the power gave it six months.  I am reminded today of the words of Mahatma Gandhi:

	I want world sympathy in this battle of right against might.  We must not be attracted by the glitter of the cities but we must look at the villages of our country, our rural areas where millions are suffering.

Therefore it is an accepted fact in history that those who lose power will taint the new Government with every type of paint they can find.  But let us look at the limitations of the new Government.  Let us look at what the non-racial democratic Government has to pay for the apartheid debts, which is the greatest impediment in respect of the proper improvement of the quality of life of all people.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  We must not deny the fact and as the hon Mr I C Meer has stated, freedom has not been attained yet.  What you have gained is only political freedom.  What you have got in your hands is the key to the door and until such time that you do not attain that economic freedom, freedom has no real meaning.

Peace has to be associated with freedom, and I want to say that the key to permanent peace in this Province is the ANC and the IFP walking that road to real freedom hand in hand.  We know that if the ANC and the IFP walk this road hand in hand as you Mr Premier has shown with the hon leader of the ANC in this Province, an example, you will have set the stage for permanent peace.  Like an aeroplane that was being invented in this universe, pilots who were in that period of test and trial, gave their lives.  We are worried about deaths today but what about highlighting the agent provocateurs, who gave undertakings that politicians who differ from them will be ground to political dust.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.

MR A RAJBANSI:  What about the revelations at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission as to who was responsible for all the trauma and tragedies in this country.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

I was just thinking that if I was a member of the ANC I would have delivered one of my finest speeches against those who still believe that this country has not changed.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, the hon member says I am looking for a membership card.  In 1999, you know, the reduction of the size of the political party will commence.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  May I then call upon Mr Powell and you have eight minutes.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  That certainly is a very hard act to follow.  Hon Premier and hon members, it is a great pleasure and honour for me to participate in this debate on the Premier's address, particularly given that it was our Premier's last such address, and my first participation in a debate in this distinguished House.

It was clear to all present in this House yesterday that the winds of change which are blowing through KwaZulu-Natal are no longer simply ill winds.  A new spirit of constructive engagement and good governance is beginning to show positive results and I have no doubt that all the members of this House, irrespective of party affiliation will agree that this is in the best interests of all the people of our Province.

The evils of violence, crime, unemployment, homelessness and poverty have bedeviled attempts by the Government of our Province under the leadership of our Premier to translate a vision which we all share of a better life for our people into reality.

The Premier's address coming at a crucial midterm in this Government's term of office, gives us an opportunity to conduct a post-mortem on our performance.

In 1999 the electorate of KwaZulu-Natal will accept no excuses.  It will not be interested in convoluted rationalisations for shortcomings and non-delivery.  It will simply measure its relative position at that time to where it was in 1994 when we were elected.  It is up to us to make sure that we are not found wanting when those questions are asked.  We must accept the reality that the licence to govern expires in 1999, and only the people can decide if they wish to renew that licence or not.

The Premier in his address dealt with the burning issues of crime and violence and presented this House with an optimistic picture.  I do not wish to detract from this optimism but rather to put these statistics and information in their wider perspective.

I feel very strongly that the public debates around violence is carried out largely by three distinct categories of persons.  Firstly, there are those people who pontificate about violence from the relative comfort of their pulpits, from their comfortable offices and their safe and secure environment.

These people readily trot out moral platitudes and offer solutions to bring about an end to the violence but are always conspicuously absent when these problems manifest themselves.

The second category of people are the so-called violence monitors who vulture-like make a living from the suffering of others, and have transformed the misery of our people into an academic growth industry and contribute little or nothing to finding solutions.

Then there are those people, some of them who sit in this House, who bury the dead, comfort the widows and orphans, try and cool tempers and work tirelessly to bring an end to this senseless violence.  The hon Minister has paid tribute to the role which our Premier has played in leading that process.

In recent months a new process has begun to take root, because the last category of people from both the ANC and the IFP have joined forces across party political lines to try and solve this problem.  We need to at all times be honest, often brutally so and avoid the simplistic solutions bandied around by those people who have no real vested interest in our finding a solution.

Members of this House have taken a lead in this regard and it is against that background that we should see our Premier's address.

I wish to deal with the problem of criminality and the threat which this poses to our efforts to improve the living conditions of our people.

Crime is eroding much of the success which we have achieved.  It threatens every facet of governance in our Province and it is appropriate that the Premier has declared war against it.  But to fight a war you need soldiers and in this case the soldiers at the disposal of society are the SAPS.  It becomes painfully obvious that this army is in disarray.

Years of neglect, misallocation of resources, organised resistance to authority and even the impact of isolation and sanctions on the levels of expertise of both human and physical resources have taken their toll.  Vast areas of KwaZulu-Natal and in particular those areas administered by the former KwaZulu Government receive little or no service from the SAPS.  The racially based allocation of resources including police stations, manpower and vehicles has meant that the vast rural communities do not enjoy any real level of safety or security.  For these communities, the name of the Department is an ironic misnomer and they suffer unacceptably high levels of violence and crime without the benefit of private security companies, burglar alarms and other protection secured by their urban counterparts.

This needs to be urgently addressed through an audit of existing resources and their reallocation and an emergency police station building programme to meet the shortfall required to service these disadvantaged communities.

The service conditions of members of the SAPS needs to be given our urgent attention.  The declining budget allocation to policing in real terms is indefensible, given the problems which the SAPS management face.

The service is constantly losing competent members who are not prepared to accept the appalling service conditions under which they are expected to work.  This is hardly surprising given some of the startling evidence of mismanagement which we read about in the media.  It has, for instance, recently emerged that a directive has been given that police petrol bowsers must be locked overnight apparently in an effort to reduce petrol consumption.

One can only speculate what the response of citizens who call for assistance will be when they are told that they have to wait until the pumps open because the police van has run out of petrol.

We also hear of a directive that vehicles which travel under 3 000 kilometres per month are to be taken away, prompting individual unit commanders to issue unofficial instructions to their members, to drive their vehicles round and round the block, to make sure that these scarce resources are not taken away from the unit.

More significantly, we hear of a serving member of the SAPS, arrested and granted bail twice in as many weeks on rape charges, allegedly committed while on duty, being returned to duty in the very area where he allegedly committed these offences.

This kind of mismanagement undermines public confidence in the SAPS and perhaps more importantly sends a message to members of the SAPS that such behaviour is somehow regarded in a less than serious light.  It is essential that these rotten elements are rooted out, to protect the majority of selfless men and women who serve in the SAPS and who are genuinely committed to our safety and security.

We should also spare a thought for those members of the SAPS who voluntarily serve in the various State mortuaries, performing a thankless and unpleasant function and who have recently lost their special allowance and are understandingly increasingly reluctant to continue doing this job.

These apparently misguided efforts to save money are in sharp contrast with the irrational expenditure in other areas of policing, which are regarded as politically expedient by the Central Government.

One wonders, for instance, whether the Province or inevitably the taxpayer will be picking up the tab for Colonel Dutton to fly back from abroad to attend a party here in Durban of the former ITU, or why it is necessary for the setting up of a special investigation unit into taxi violence when such a unit already exists.  It would seem that budgetary considerations cease to be a problem when it comes to awarding those who have served their political masters to their satisfaction.

I raise these issues because a demoralised and demotivated army badly managed and led, cannot be expected to win this war against crime.  The excellent initiatives launched by the Premier will not succeed, unless those charged with carrying this battle to the enemy are not adequately looked after.

The neglect of the SAPS and its mismanagement impacts on every sector of our society and the best plans, the most visionary strategies, will fail unless this collapse is not urgently addressed.

Our Premier has tirelessly tried to make a difference in the face of the systematic erosion both constitutionally and through a legislation of his ability to manage policing.  This process has, however, a positive side.

The erosion of meaningful authority at provincial levels over policing brings with it a reduction in liability.  In 1999 when voters of South Africa make a judgment on rampant crime levels it will not be the IFP led Government of this Province who they will blame.

I would like to finally add my voice to those who have saluted our Premier for his selfless service and devotion to the people of our Province.  I wish him well in his retirement and the well earned rest which he will now enjoy.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call on the hon Mr J Mkwanazi for four minutes.

[Thank you Mr Speaker, for this opportunity to address the House].

I wonder what a small man like myself can say after the giant and eloquent speakers of this House have spoken.  On behalf of my party I am compelled to stand and thank the Premier for all that he has done for this Province.  Like Mark Anthony in the speech read at the graveside of Brutus, I would like to say fortunately we have not come to bury you, we have come to praise you for the good that you have done, although the good is often interrd with the bones of those who have done good.  But we praise you while you are still alive.

I would like only to make one or two points on the contribution that has been made by the Premier, particularly on the question of his fight against the scourge of violence, political violence which almost swallowed and devoured this Province.

The manner which he, the Premier, and hon Mr Zuma, the leader of the ANC in the Province handled this matter tempted me to call them Princes of Peace.  Unfortunately, if I continue to say that, my leader who is a Bishop, may fire me from the party for what, I do not remember what they call ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Blasphemy.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  For blasphemy.  But it is true that the two brothers have worked very well.  Now as the Premier bows out I have no doubt, because from what I know of the hon Ben Ngubane, he is capable of fitting into the shoes of Dr Frank Mdlalose.  I believe he is capable of working closely with hon Jacob Zuma knowing their temperaments myself.

I have a worry, because of the rumours and because of the speculations that are flying all over, that perhaps when our President Mandela steps down from the presidency of the PAC - ayibo, of the ANC.  [LAUGHTER]  I talk too much of the PAC.  When he steps down and Deputy President Mbeki ascends, there is a very strong rumour that Jacob Zuma will take over the deputy presidency of the ANC and most probably will be taken away from this Province.  There is a lot of rumour, there is a lot of speculation, but I know there are some people who want to hear what they want to hear.

I only hope and have confidence in the leaders and members of the ANC that when they choose another leader they will help us by choosing another leader, if that happens, of the same temperament and wisdom as that of Jacob Zuma.

Finally, I do want to mention that, Mr Speaker, hon Mdlalose has bowed out because of health reasons.  I believe and we all believe the health reasons are because of the load of work which he has been carrying.  I want to believe that the hon Ben Ngubane, if he is given the same load, I mean we must be sensitive, the Government must be sensitive to human nature.  No human being can hold three ministries, one of them being a Premier.  Therefore I appeal to Government to make it possible as soon as possible perhaps to free our new Premier of other duties and give the duties to other people.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I call upon her Ladyship Mrs Downs.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, through you, sir, there are a number of comments that I wish to make to the Premier.  I have not known him very well or have not served under him for a long time in the Legislature, but I have followed his career from the beginning of his term of office with interest.

I would just like to say to you that when Jesus was talking to two of his disciples who wished to take a place of honour alongside of him in the Kingdom of Heaven, he actually said to them that they must learn first to become servants of the people.  I would like to say to you that you have truly represented for me the issue of servant leadership.  You have chosen to serve your people first and for that I must commend you.

I have also seen that with your graciousness and personal warmth and with often Solomon's wisdom you have negotiated this Province through some very sticky patches, and you have not counted yourself above anybody else.  Your humility has been evident to all of us.  It is very hard these days to find a truly honourable man and you, sir, are such a man.  You have served this Province well and you are an example to us all.

In keeping with my party's view I would like to say a prayer over you in farewell.

	May God bless and keep you, may his face shine upon you and may he shower you with his richest blessings in your time of retirement.

There are some comments, however, that I would like to make regarding the Safety and Security Portfolio.  My congratulations both to the Minister and to the people of the Province, especially people like Business against Crime for the inroads they have made in reducing crime.  There are, however, two cautions that I would like to bring lest we congratulate ourselves too early.

The first is that we have compared ourselves to the South African national average, and although in most instances we are below the South African national average - that is good, but I do not believe that it is a good yardstick with which to measure ourselves by.  I believe that we need to redouble our efforts to cause ourselves to be below the average of other countries that have good records of crime keeping.

The second caution I wish to bring is actually much more serious.  There is a war being raged in the country and in this Province, there is a war being raged against women.  All of our women are presently under siege.  It is the war of rape that is being perpetrated.  The reason I am bringing it up is that it was not mentioned in your speech and I believe that that is a great pity.

While the cautionary rule is still in effect, where a Judge has to take a woman's evidence with caution in such cases, we cannot truly say that women are being treated equally for one, and we cannot say that the war against rape is being effectively waged.

The second issue I wish to bring to the attention of this House, is where the woman in Pinetown, who was raped, was treated with such disrespect by, first of all, the district surgeon concerned, who was not available to deal with her case and secondly, by a private doctor who refused to examine her under very trying circumstances.

My party has made a complaint to the Medical Association of South Africa about the private doctor and we have also written a complaint about the district surgeon who was unavailable.

Now this case which I am highlighting here, I think highlights that we need to take special measures to actually deal with this issue.  That it is not an issue that can be dealt with along with all of the other crime issues.  I believe, like the Premier put special measures in place to curb political violence, that we need to look at such things to curb rape that is occurring with women.  It is an absolute disgrace that in certain areas when a girl reaches the age of 15 that three out of four such girls have been raped at least once by that age, and that is a disgrace to this Province and to this country.

I would like to ask how much research has been done into why men rape.  What programmes are in place to educate police, district surgeons and so on to actually deal with such cases.  I would really urge your successor in this Ministry of Safety and Security, to take up this issue and to look upon it with a good eye and to see what can be done in this Province.  Let this Province become the leader in this issue like we have in so many others.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Moorcroft for the DP.

MR E MOORCROFT:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, this is my maiden speech in this hon House.  After years of political toil it is not often given to an old politician like myself to regain his maidenhood in this way.  [LAUGHTER]  I am grateful to all of you who have made this, my new found state of grace, possible.

I should like to point out that I am actually a kind of a double maiden.  Not only is this my first speech in this place but it is also the first time that a member of the National Council of Provinces has officially had the privilege of addressing the House.  I thank you most sincerely for permitting me this double honour.

In view of my maidenly status there is also a strict onus on me not to give a controversial speech.  However, I trust that I will be forgiven if I give my personal views of the hon the Premier's valedictory address.

Let me say without hesitation that it was in my view a most stirring speech delivered by a true statesman and peace-maker.  I was strongly reminded of the words of the beatitude. 

	Blessed are the peace-makers for they shall be called the children of God.

The hon Premier is and always has been a peace-maker and he will surely be blessed abundantly.  May he long be spared to enjoy the golden years of his retirement.

During his address the hon the Premier mentioned the National Council of Provinces and was kind enough to extend a warm personal welcome to me.  I thank him sincerely for his kind words.

I bring greetings from the National Council of Provinces, in particular I bring greetings from the chairperson of our delegation, Mr Jeffery Bhengu, who has asked me to convey his regrets for his unavoidable absence.

The creation of NCOP, as we now know it, is a bold attempt to put right what was wrong with the old Senate.  We all know that in a system of Government such as ours, where regional Government is an important and powerful component, an upper House which is dedicated to being not only a servant of the Province but also and in particular an effective custodian of provincial rights and interests at Central Government level, is a highly desirable institution.

The old Senate failed to fulfil that custodial role and it paid the price.  Whether or not it could have been sufficiently modified does not concern us here.  We are now faced with a fait accompli.  We have the NCOP and it is up to us to make it work.

One of the most significant innovations of NCOP, in my view, is the manner in which Bills concerning matters of provincial competence, the so-called section 76 Bills are to be dealt with.  As hon members will know, we, your delegation in NCOP, will be mandated by you to speak with one voice and to vote accordingly on these matters.  This will require a high degree of consensus building in the deliberations preceding the mandate.

Now it is my understanding that one of the outstanding characteristics of this House over the past years has been the extraordinary degree of consensus which has been achieved, so much so that I have been told that the electronic scoreboard is seldom, if ever, used.

This speaks volumes for the nature of this Legislature and the calibre of its members.  This striving for consensus, must surely reinforce the example set by the hon the Premier and serve to bind the people of this Province even more powerfully, into a force which will take the Province forward to its rightful place at centre stage of our country's social, political and economic life.  I trust that the teamwork of your NCOP delegation will not only reflect the harmony which you, Mr Speaker, have achieved, but will also enhance it.

In closing, the NCOP is an institution in its infancy.  Like all infants, it will experience teething trouble and growing pains.  We hope that this stage will soon pass and that it will develop into a lusty and viable body that will fight effectively for the rights of the provinces.  I believe that your delegation of six permanent and four special representatives, represent a powerful team.

Insofar as it is within my competence to do so, I pledge your delegation to serving the interests of this great Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  I trust that we will be worthy of the confidence which you in this Legislature have placed in us.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  It is now my pleasure to call upon the hon Min V T Zulu to address the House.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, the hon House.  I rise to support the Premier's speech as well as to salute the man himself.

I will in a short space of time provide and highlight further aspects of areas of education, sports and culture.  I want to salute the Premier for having relentlessly fought against violence, having fought hard for good governance, fought hard against corruption and fought hard to bring about unity in the Government.

The Premier also highlighted some aspects of education.  I will also highlight some of these.  I will particularly concentrate on those areas shunned by the media for one reason or another.

In the culture section of our Department we have allocated monies to the eight demarcated regions as well as authentic deserving arts and culture organisations that stand to promote culture in the various regions of the Province.  We called a press conference to announce this distribution but for inexplicable reasons nothing appeared in the media.

In the sports section of our Department we have finally succeeded after tremendous difficulties to set up regional structures in the Province.  This has been achieved through the tireless efforts of Dr Khanyile and the interim Provincial Sports and Recreation Council led by Mr K L Lebenya and Mr R Ngcobo.

We do have a serious problem in culture and sports.  There are individuals with hidden agendas who are bedeviling the co-ordination of culture and sports in the various regions.  There are also attempts to operate culture and sports activities through the Metro structures that have some measure of autonomy in these areas.  A healthier position would have been co-ordination of all regions including the Metro.

We have just had a workshop on the culture of learning and teaching in the Province.  After the workshop we held a press conference.  Again for inexplicable reasons very little appeared in the print media.

Our workshop concentrated on the relationship between the Department and teacher organisations plus the budget.  I believe healthy relations with teacher organisations would promote the culture of learning and teaching.  We have the situation where teachers leave classrooms for their own meetings without proper agreements with the Department and parent communities.  The time off agreement in the education labour relations chamber is not being properly applied by the teacher organisations.

There are reasons, of course, that are given by teacher organisations to do this but they are not so keen to come to the Department and to negotiate this time off, because they affect our students and they affect communities.

In the workshop that I referred to we agreed to pursue further negotiations on these issues.  The workshop also questioned the use of monies for security at the expense of textbooks.

It was very interesting that when this matter was raised the teacher organisations were silent and some members of the Portfolio Committee were silent because this issue is troubling us as a Department.  To what extent should we provide security to the schools, at the expense of other services, since we are operating under a very tight budget.  Relevant stakeholders are refusing to discuss this issue.

There is presently an agreement that we provide security to KwaMashu and Umlazi, but these are not the only areas where there are problems.  There are other areas where we do have this problem.  What I am saying is that when we do sit down and discuss this question of security, members should be sincere about this question.

There is the question of the budget, and we cannot continue for a very long time providing security only to KwaMashu and Umlazi.  We have to look at other places with the meagre budget that we have and we have to devise a system whereby teachers feel comfortable throughout the Province.  Teachers get killed not only in KwaMashu and Umlazi, teachers get killed even in other places.

Now what I am saying is we need to sit down and see what we can do with the little that we have.  The Department has always wanted to devise a formula for security for all schools in the Province, but in our last negotiations SADTU, through their national secretary, insisted on security at KwaMashu and Umlazi only.  That was the final agreement, but then we want to have in place a security system for all other areas.  So it would be surprising if now other areas are coming up and saying, "Let us have security now", when the very same people said KwaMashu and Umlazi is the place.  The Department wants to spread the little money available through the whole Province.

Mr Speaker, before I sit down I want to once again salute the Premier for his fight against violence.  When he started it was difficult for the Premier to be seen with Minister Zuma.  It was hair raising for some of his constituencies but the Premier persevered and went on believing that such meetings were the only meetings and the one way of achieving peace in the Province.  He has been doing this until the stage where it has become acceptable, in fact by all the parties.  It is now acceptable that for peace to come by in this Province the two people must work hand in hand and they must work hand in hand until the sincerity is seen by all concerned, from both parties.

He has worked hard on good governance.  He has just announced the policy against corruption and the Premier has moved on as a gentleman, a quality legislation.  The majestic Premier, a man of peace, a humble citizen and I say, "Fare thee well, Mr Premier, Nyanda".

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now it is my honour to call upon the hon Mr V Volker to address the House.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Order! Order please.  I know Mr Volker may be a favourite of so many here.  [LAUGHTER]  But I would insist that he be given an opportunity to say what he wants to without interference.  The hon member please.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to reiterate what so many have said and pay tribute personally to Dr Frank Mdlalose, the hon the Premier.  I have known him intimately at least since 1987, for 10 years now, and we co-operated very closely in the interaction between the Natal Provincial Executive and the KwaZulu Cabinet and especially in the Joint Executive Authority.  I know him as a person of integrity, as a person of peace and as a person of absolute sincerity.  I salute you and I wish you everything of the best.

With the time allocation there is not very much time that has been allocated to various speakers, including myself.  I want to deal with one specific issue and the politicians can rest in peace.  I will not attack the politicians today.  I want to deal with the issue of good governance.  I accept with absolute sincerity that the Premier and the whole Cabinet are sincere, are honest in their commitment to bring about good governance.

I want to raise one problem.  The good governance is more than a commitment and a sincere and honest commitment by the political leaders.  It requires an equal commitment by the administration.  I want to give certain examples which indicate to me that that commitment is not yet there.  I want to refer to a specific example, only as an example because there are many, many such instances.

The first week in October, furniture was stolen out of the official residence of the Deputy Speaker.  Furniture to the value of something like over R38 000,00.

The theft was subsequently established as coming from a security guard in the employ of the Department of Public Works.  It was reported to the Internal Arrangements Committee at its meeting on 4 December.  The Internal Arrangements Committee took a decision to request the Director-General to take immediate steps to institute internal disciplinary measures.  This was the beginning of December.

In the meantime, the matter had been reported to the police.  On 24 October the police reported that the culprit had been found and had been charged but had been released on bail.  He is back in his work in Public Works at full pay.

I wrote to the Director-General and asked him to give me a progress report of what had been done, not what had been intended to be done but what had been done.  I got a letter in reply, dated 13 January, stating that he had had a meeting with the Heads of Department.  One particularly disturbing feature in the letter from the Director-General was, he said that on 13 January at the MEXCO meeting Heads of Department confirmed that the procedure in the entire Government of the Province had been to suspend employees with full pay and this is the important thing that follows, "For fear of repercussions should they terminate the salary before the verdict of guilt is given".  People that have transgressed, when they are suspended are suspended on full pay and we have had cases in other departments of suspension lasting over 18 months on full pay.

This is not good enough.  What message does it give?  What message does it give to those that transgress, that Heads of Department for fear of repercussion are not taking the necessary action.

Then in a letter on 11 February by the Director-General to the Director of Labour Relations, the Director-General states, inter alia:

	Members of the Portfolio Committee are very keen that public servants be suspended without pay.

He places the onus on members of the Portfolio Committee.  There is no commitment by the heads of staff that disciplinary action will be taken internally and therefore the onus must be placed on members of the Portfolio Committee.  That is not good enough.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR V A VOLKER:  Political leaders, Cabinet Ministers must ensure that their administrative heads are as equally committed as they are, to take the necessary steps to establish discipline in the department and the public must be able to see that there is discipline in the departments.  That is why in the few minutes that are available, I wish to support the commitment of the Cabinet, the sincere commitment to clean Government, to good and clean administration.  That we want to see the administration being established, being effected and that there must be a visible commitment to clean administration.

In the time available I cannot elaborate much further, but I have 14 pages of documents here which are a sorry state of the actual commitment of the administration to a good and clean Government.  I will hope that Cabinet Ministers will ensure, with the heads of Government, that they take the necessary steps.

It has also been said that hand a matter over to the police and that is where it stops.  There is no further action.  This particular case, although the person has been arrested and let out on bail in October, there has been no further action.  The Director-General in fact on 11 February, said to the Director Labour Relations:

	Please reply as soon as possible as there has to be a meaningful report before February 17 otherwise I have been warned that the matter will be raised in Parliament.

Now it has been raised in Parliament and I sincerely hope that there will be action as from now.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you very much, Mr Volker.  I will now call upon the hon Minister B Ngubane.

DR B S NGUBANE: (Minister of Finance, Auxiliary Affairs, Racing and Wagering):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Bartlett said that this debate amounted to a no-confidence vote in the Premier and his Government.  I can confidently say to the hon member, that this House expresses overwhelming confidence in the Premier and his Cabinet.

I would like to thank Mr Jacob Zuma and Mr Mkhwanazi for the confidence that they have expressed in the continuation of the leadership style in Government, that the Premier established.

I am also confident that we will realise what critical roles we as political parties in this House have to play in consolidating the democratic transition for KwaZulu-Natal and consequently of course for the rest of South Africa.

A heavy burden rests on the political leadership in this House to enshrine political discipline, to enshrine a type of political process that is well grounded in ethics and of course to always be cognisant of the fact that we are here as representatives of the people, seeking to impact through Government on the quality of life of the people that we represent.

In this respect I must say that the tradition that the Premier established, together with Mr Zuma is a sterling example, not just to politicians in this Province but throughout the country.  If there is any Province that has walked a very difficult road since the elections in 1994 it is KwaZulu-Natal, because it is here that all the various problems that this country faced in the period of transition, in moving from an authoritarian type of Government to a democratic one.  Those problems were concentrated here and multiplied a hundredfold.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR B S NGUBANE: (Minister of Finance, Auxiliary Affairs, Racing and Wagering):  We failed to be complete participants in the constitutional process because there were principles and issues that were very fundamental to the constituency that we lead.  That without adequate thrashing out of these issues, our constituents would not understand what we were negotiating.  Those issues unfortunately still exist but mechanisms and processes to address them have been put in place by the Premier and the hon Mr Jacob Zuma.  This is the path that we shall pursue.

Hopefully, with the strength from the Almighty, with the support of our colleagues, we shall just maintain the steady progress that was so evident through the Premier and Mr Zuma.

Of course I do expect that there will be a conscious realisation between the African National Congress' chairperson and the chairperson of the IFP, that we have got to deepen negotiation, that we have got to define very clearly all the initiatives that have been taken and all the results that have been achieved, so that the people are aware what already has been achieved and therefore give us sufficient mandates to go into those more difficult issues, as mentioned by my colleague Mr Gwala in a very successful and productive way.

Mr Premier, our National Council voted unanimously that you become the national chairperson emeritus of our party.  In this way I am confident that we will continue to draw on your wisdom, that you will be the wellspring of inspiration for me as your successor in the chairmanship of the party, and that you will continue to be a very accessible source of wisdom, as we try to negotiate a very complicated and intricate path towards this Province becoming a world class Province in terms of economic policy, in terms of development projects and in terms of clean Government.

With this I say farewell my brother, but I know you have never left us.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!  (APPLAUSE)

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon Minister, Mr S Ndebele.  

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It is a privilege to participate in this discussion.  Like Mr Mkhwanazi, I will say one is reminded of Shakespeare when adversaries, I think it was again Mark Anthony who, when he heard of Brutus' demise, I hope I am correct here, said:  "that was a man", even as they were adversaries, he said , "that was a man".  We are not so much adversaries with the Premier, "he is a man," he is not "was a man".

In a Province like KwaZulu-Natal where its men and women have been watching each other grow it is indeed fitting to have listened to the Premier's speech yesterday.  When I say we have been watching each other grow it means that we have experienced childhood and a child, as everybody knows, though it is an object of love but it is a very selfish specimen of humanity.  It makes a noise when you want it to be quiet, it just screams and it does not care what everybody is doing, it will just pursue its own selfish thing at that particular time.  But we love a child simply because we know that it is in the process of becoming something else.  It is in the process of becoming an adult.

In that way we also love this Province, even as it went through such traumatic experiences from 1994 in particular.  We had many conflicts.  Whether we were talking about the composition of the Cabinet, whether we were talking about portfolios, whether we were talking about the capital, whether we were talking about the name of the Province, whether we were talking about the Constitution, whether we were talking about the King Shaka Celebration, all those areas were major arenas of conflict.

As a student of biology, there is a fly in South America, it is a very peculiar fly.  It is called a June Fly.  It lives for about six hours.  When it is born roundabout ten in the evening, by 4 o'clock it will be an old man, it will die.  [LAUGHTER]  That fly, if it truthfully tells that it lived until a ripe old age and there is no such a thing as a sun it will be forgiven because it never saw the sun and the sun did not exist in its lifetime.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is what they call a fly by night. [LAUGHTER]

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  But leadership needs not to resemble the June fly of South America, and the leadership that was provided by Nyanda went beyond that.  It is all very well when a person is elected a leader, it is applauded and everybody claps hands and you are very happy because people give you that candle to carry and if there is darkness and you carry a candle everybody is happy with you.  But as the night goes and it goes beyond the expected, the candle becomes shorter and shorter and it begins to burn your hand and the Premier's hand has been burnt many times.  When he comes with that candle and there is still darkness and it starts burning his hand we say he is a true leader because he did not throw out that candle, he held it even when it was very, very tough.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!  

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Holding that candle makes us today to be a normal Province.  When people just saw the narrow interests of the IFP, the narrow interests of the ANC and any other party, Nyanda emerged together with Msholozi here, they emerged and said, "No, no, no, life is beyond what you are seeing just in the immediate".  There is life beyond this conflict.  There will be a time when we will walk shoulder to shoulder, hand in hand and lead this Province to where the people expected it to be led, and the first task was to bring peace.

You can have whatever infrastructure you have.  You can have your schools, your clinics, your roads and so forth but if there is political conflict, there is political violence, all that comes to nought and as I said, the first task was to bring peace into this Province and we are now beginning to see the fruits of that.

Many have spoken about the good governance programme of the hon Premier Mdlalose.  It makes us proud to have served and to be serving in that Executive.  I did not want to refer to the hon Mr Schutte, but for the record one must.

It makes one proud to serve in an Executive presided over by our Premier, because at no time did we discuss that we shall divert the budget of this Province to pay for instance for some third force activities.  We did not and we stayed there as he sat in the chair, we knew that not only is he presiding in this Committee, he presides over other subcommittees as well.  We knew there were no subcommittees for instance, that were busy with hit squads.  There were no subcommittees that were dealing with trained violence.  There were no subcommittees that were conspiring to take the R15 billion that we have as our budget to squander in some fights with Renamo in Mozambique.  That is not true of the Executive that was presided over by either Mr Botha or Mr de Klerk.

Here we are like a widow in this Province or in this country as a whole.  It is like a widow who had a husband who she thought, here is a good husband who loves me, but that husband was busy getting into bonds and buying flats in some towns and houses for another concubine there.  Then when the husband dies who has been galavanting all over, the poor wife discovers, "Jesus Christ, I am saddled with a bond on a house bought for my rival, a concubine".  This is where the Government of this day finds itself.

It finds it has got to pay for debts entered into by the National Party Government, to go and fight against freedom in Angola, to go and fight against freedom in Namibia, such that today we are landed with R350 billion debt.  Thanks to the National Party.

AN HON MEMBER:  What was it in 1994?  

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thanks to the National Party that enmeshed us into that huge debt.  It did not even have the decency to pay the South African Police Services.  The police went home with a pittance of R600,00.  For the first time there has been an attempt to address it, to raise that but if you are raising R600,00, even if you raise it by 50% it is just like fighting against the wind.  But that is the National Party.  The only police that it paid were those that were involved in hit squads.  The ones at Vlakplaas never ran short of money when they went to Botha or when they went to de Klerk.  The money was there because it was going to divide the Black people, kill the Black people.  Yes, that is your party.  I am glad that you want to leave it.  You do not even want to associate with that name.  You are looking for a name, we will give you a name.  [LAUGHTER]

It is a shameful party.  Its task was that there must be divisions.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Divisions.  As long as there were divisions it was fine.  We have got, for instance, the police today that are so poorly paid and they have such a bad name because they were administered by a party that we entrusted or we did not, we did not trust them.  They took power by force and maintained it and demoralised the police, made them as if they are now the enemy of the people.  We are restoring that today.  The police are friends and we are fighting very hard, even with this huge national debt to make them live under better conditions.

Coming back to the Premier.  I think his most lasting tribute would be again on the question of peace.  Today we know that, I am happy, Mbomvu has clarified the new national chairperson of the IFP, has clarified to members who might not know the policy that the mechanism is now in place.  There is no need, Mphephethwa to fight anything.  The mechanisms are now in place for any outstanding constituent things to be sorted out, not by fighting, fighting.  No, no, there is no need to fight as Mbomvu has said.  There will be no need to fight anything, the mechanisms are in place to revise whatever is shoddy in the Constitution.  Whoever did not participate in the drawing must be drawn in to come and improve because now we are in a co-operative governance and we are in a place where we negotiate and whatever we are going to put forward now is going to be put under making South Africa run better and that is in place.

The most outstanding thing, Baba Nyanda is leaving us today, is that we have all been liberated.  If you start with the question of Ulundi, you walk at that Ulundi Plaza today.  Whether you are hon Dumisani Makhaye or Mike Sutcliffe.  The ladies there are saying, "Oh please, why are you leaving today?  Stay on", and so forth.  [LAUGHTER]  We have liberated.

AN HON MEMBER:  It is the ladies that say that.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  They say so to hon Dumisani because he is not married.  [LAUGHTER]  But this place has been liberated.  It has been liberated from being a centre of just one party and insofar as it was a centre of one party you could not be proud of it, but today it is a centre, we come here weekends, we do not have to report to anybody, we sit there and meet whoever we want to meet and walk around here.  It becomes a free place.

AN HON MEMBER:  Do you not come in convoy any more?  [LAUGHTER]

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  No, I do not need a convoy any more, I do not need to come secretly any more.  That has been a tribute to this creation of peace.  Peace in Ulundi, peace in Pietermaritzburg, peace in Enseleni, peace in Clermont, peace everywhere so that we know that there is no place that anybody cannot enter anywhere.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Yes, we have been doing our homework.  What you have been doing in Ulundi we have been doing in Clermont.  As you are telling people in Ulundi that the ANC is not an enemy we are telling the people in Clermont that the IFP is not an enemy.  That is a major tribute to the leaders that have been leading us.

Similarly, today will see us together after the agreement of 27 May, that the war is now over and we emphasise that that was a process.  Baba Nyanda was emphasising this in the media, Baba Msholozi was emphasising this.  This is a process it is not an event.  When we say violence ends we mean that there is now full commitment, particularly by the IFP and the ANC to end the violence.  It led to peaceful elections but people were surprised on 24 September, the Heritage Day, that here was the leadership of KwaZulu-Natal being seen together, at King's Park, led by the Premier.

They were again surprised to see us all together at KwaDaguza, schemes and all.  They were to be surprised further when what they thought was purely an ANC thing but we said no there is no such thing as a purely ANC thing, when somebody has died, when Mamma Khanyile Luthuli passed away all of us, the entire leadership was there to honour.  People could not even have dreamt of that 12 months before but there we were, the President of the country, the Premier, Msholozi, everybody was there.

That was repeated only last Sunday at Ohlange where again you find all the leaders being there, uMntwana Kwa Phindangene, Msholozi, Baba Mbomvu and so forth, all of them there celebrating this common hero of us all, and that is a Province on its way to normality.  On its way to normality having known what abnormality is and therefore, because we are not retarded children, we are not likely to be making the old mistakes again.  So this is a major tribute to Baba Nyanda.  His manner was such that he is approachable, he is a nice uncle to everybody.  [LAUGHTER]

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  He does not raise his voice in anger.  You could see when he was not pleased but he does not raise his voice in anger.  You could phone him at home and every time he always had a proposal that would not jar anybody but would take us forward, would be able to be proud even when the matter is past.  At least I have not created any enemy.  He is a man perhaps who thrives in the creation of permanent friends not permanent enemies.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  It is not going to be very nice not to have him around, but there is so much to do in this Province, and as the hon Dr Ngubane was saying, there is so much to be done here, particularly in the area of peace.  To consolidate this peace that he started I am sure he is still going to play a major role in it.  He will not have the shackles of Government and the responsibility of Government, with a 101 things to do that he would be able to devote himself much more to that goal, such that all of us can live under this legacy.  It has been a singular fortune of this Province, like Baba Mkhwanazi used to say that at this particular hour a man like Dr Mdlalose was chosen to lead this Province.  It has been our most singular honour.

I think it is a very unhappy thing to bid him farewell but that was a man.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!  [APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  It is now my honour before calling upon the Premier to say a few words.  I am rather in a difficult position because the Premier has the misfortune of having me as his brother.  [LAUGHTER]  Nevertheless, this is not the opportunity of raking up family differences.  I have heard what I have heard from this House, all the words of praise and everything else.  I wondered whether this was an epitaph or what.

I cannot help being reminded once more, as I looked at all of you present here, the words of a great statesman of Britain, "Never before in the history of this House ...", if I am allowed to misquote him, "... was there so much owed by so many to so few", or to one person in this particular instance.  You have spoken of peace, you have spoken of so many other things that were done elsewhere and I am moved to think that the Premier has that opportunity, that fortune to be one of those ranked characters, where so many owed him as much as you yourself in your own words have said.

Having said so, may I at this juncture and this point in time say to those that cannot understand the language of Heaven and have no chance of ever comprehending themselves to God will listen patiently as I now end this episode in the language he has spoken all his life.

	We may now sit down.

TRANSLATION:  These are his ancestors responsible for his birth.  I say I would not be doing the right think if you speak in this fashion about my father's child, and I do not report that to his great-grandfathers.  I say everything for the best to you Nyanda yePhahla.  You are not going to sit down to the accompaniment of best wishes emanating from these men of yours to your great great-grandfathers.  They will realize that you have been a man of honour, you have not been a coward.  I thank all of you who are present.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  I will therefore at this point in time call upon the hon the Premier to address this House on this first session of the first Legislature of KwaZulu in 1997.  As Your Honour pleases.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, and members of this House.  First, I crave your indulgence to come to the mundane, the simple things in life.  I would have taken the opportunity earlier in the morning to table this 1996 Annual Report of the Police.  Unfortunately we did not have enough copies to circulate and I knew that if I raised it and said I am tabling this report I might have had some rather difficult words coming from certain members, you know.  [LAUGHTER]  I will not mention them but you know the direction I am looking at.  If I may table the annual report of the South African Police Services, KwaZulu-Natal 1996.  I thank you.


The remarks that have been made in this House during this debate have made me feel rather uncomfortable.  I must say they have really been making me feel a bit flustered.  There has been a bit more praise than I think I deserve.  I thank you all for it and I will find it difficult to go through what everybody has said.  I shall make references here and there.

Firstly, I would like to refer to my colleague the hon the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, Mr J G Zuma.  He gave quite an elaborate account of our relationship and our interaction.  I just thought I might add one little dimension to that.

We have travelled together, he and I, since 1990 when he returned from exile.  We have walked through many a valley and not always with support from every side.  I know on his side when we went through Mpumalanga and there were appearances on TV about us walking together through a very difficult situation when Mpumalanga KwaZulu-Natal, Hammarsdale had been through killings and had begun to have reconciliation, I know a certain member, a certain powerful member of his party said, well, Jacob Zuma has been like Neville Chamberlain, going to Munich, those of you who know history will remember, going into Munich to appease Hitler, and this is what Jacob Zuma is doing.

I felt very hurt about that because Jacob Zuma was not coming over to appease me in any manner, we were getting together to solve a problem.  I thought after that powerful member of the ANC had made those remarks that Mr Zuma might have become a little bit shy of associating himself with me and perhaps pulling away, but that was never to be.  He and I walked this path together all the way through.  I would like to pay tribute to you for what you have done in walking along with me and in offering many suggestions and in bearing your chest out on many problems that you and I have faced.  Your speech this morning indicated what I already know about you, your approach to peace, your approach to relationships between people.  I would like to thank you very much for that.  I think our Province has gained a lot from that which has shown so very clearly.

I also would like to say that your reference to displacees is not an academic reference, because I know very well how you and I have been involved in dealing with displaced people in a number of places.  I refer really to Mpumalanga, Hammarsdale.  We still have that problem and we are still dealing with it and we have looked at issues of roofs over heads of people not only in Mpumalanga but also in Bruntville, also in many other places.

We have walked together through rainy days, through mud as we did when we were at Ndwedwe, through rain when we went down to Port Shepstone.  We can talk of a number of places where we have walked together in an attempt to establish peace here in KwaZulu-Natal.  It is to be hoped that that will continue, those efforts will not come to nought.

You have referred to the Committee of twelve-a-side, you have referred to pre-Codesa days, Codesa days and World Trade Centre negotiations.  Yes, we have been through it all.  Alas, the road to peace is not complete.  Alas, peace still has to be found in our Province.  It is not yet completely established but I would like to think that we are on the way towards it and perhaps it will be like truth which after all a scientist would say truth is the asymptote of research, truth is never reached except at infinity.  Possibly peace is also of that order.  I appreciate the opportunity I have had of working with Mr Zuma and his expressions this morning have been very gratifying.

We have had remarks by Mr Gwala and it is true that the position of the Monarch still has to be sorted out.  These are the areas that we still have to find one another over.  All is not lost though, we are on the way forward and our road is sometimes slippery, our road is sometimes full of thorns.  We nevertheless have to walk that road.

The tribute paid to me by Mr Schutte for my happy retirement, I thank you, sir, for those good wishes.  We have been on and off together in our interaction for some time but we are not saying it is the end of the journey.  I would hope that we will continue interacting.



TRANSLATION:   My ~Inkosi~ for the Mdletshe tribe, said a mouthful in his maiden speech, when he gave us an inspiration that this is the House which did away with the slovenliness which brought about the existence of the "animal" which was responsible for the division of the nation and which is named ~apartheid~.  T/E

Thank you very much for your remarks, Inkosi Mdletshe.

My good friend Mr Burrows as a true scholar he quoted to us from Rudyard Kipling and I felt very much elated.  I remember that at one time or another I did remember those words.  I think I must page through some of my high school books, dust them off and maybe I might pick up that poetry.  Poetry is a wonderful thing, and I think as I retire, perhaps you should give me a couple of books on poetry, English poetry that is.  Msholozi who I know loves Zulu literature might give me a couple of books from his library on some Zulu literature and I will retire and read those important books.  Your remarks are very enlightening when you say you are anti-corruption and not anti-colour.  I think that is important.

My good friend Mr I C Meer, a friend from quite a few years ago.  Four decades have passed since we first knew each other.  When I was a student at the medical school in the middle 50s he was already a practising attorney and now and then I would go over to his house with some friends to have nice good curry.  I am very thrilled by your story with regard to the cat that has been eating mice all through its life, suddenly becoming a vegetarian.  [LAUGHTER]  I have no wish to embellish those expressions, you have put them so very well yourself.  I might have added a word or two if I had wanted to but for the sake of avoiding waste of time I shall not.  I think we all know what you are talking about.

On good governance by Mr Bartlett, I was very thrilled by his analysis of it all, he showed openness, he showed commitment of the human spirit and the issue of anti-corruption, the work ethic, integrity, respect for human rights.  This is all very, very much what we are here about.  Thank you very much my friend, Mr Bartlett, my colleague.  We have worked together for many years and we differed here and there, no doubt, but that is the spice of life, but when we got together we were very progressive.

Mr Rajbansi salutes the Premier.  I salute him too.  He is one of those who are so difficult to put under a lid.  [LAUGHTER]  The tiger of Bengal can never easily be skinned.  Indeed you cannot ride him.  He is always a man of his own and he is always going his own way and I always pity the Speaker who, as he said earlier, he happens to have the misfortune of being my brother.  I pity him when he has to deal with a man like Mr Rajbansi.  But, you know, the interaction between the Speaker and Mr Rajbansi, the interaction between Mr Rajbansi and the rest of this House is always so very thrilling, so educating and you make us feel we could write books on you.  [LAUGHTER]

We have to walk hand in hand, as Mr Rajbansi said, particularly with regard to the ANC and the IFP.  We really have to walk hand in hand and I hope everybody will help us in that direction.

My colleague Mr Powell referred to a number of issues.  I do not mean to get into the details but I just thought when he referred to SAPS management with regard to the distribution of resources to former KwaZulu Police Stations, perhaps this annual report read through, but particularly with regard to pages 26 and 27 we would gain some information about what we are doing with regard to the South African Police Services and what the future holds.

Perhaps one might also remark that where he spoke about South African Police Service vehicles being refused fuel after hours, instructions given were to my knowledge those of getting verification of the identity of members and identity of vehicles who are to draw petrol after hours.  If there is anything more than that I think it should be reported to the Commissioner of Police in KwaZulu-Natal.

We have had very pleasing remarks coming from my good friend Mr Mkhwanazi, who I have met on many occasions and have met him in other countries, other than South Africa, and I could talk lots about our interaction outside South Africa but perhaps this is not the time for it.

Now when he talks about Princes of Peace, that of course clearly was blasphemy as the hon Mr Burrows shouted: "That is blasphemy" and he is quite right, that is in fact blasphemy.  I think what he was saying was that we must try and walk the good path of peace together all the time.

The graveyard speech of Mark Anthony, I thought it had been a speech of Mark Anthony as Caesar was lying in the grave.  I was not quite sure that it was the same as happened when Brutus had been killed.  I thought it was on that occasion.  The other one was about Brutus, but that was the one from the other scholar. Mark Anthony, was referring to Caesar who lay there and my heart is in the coffin with Caesar and I must hold my breath until it comes back to me and so on and so forth.  It was nice to hear such good sounding words.  Thank you, thank you, my brother.

Mrs Downs touched me quite a bit.  Ladies always touch me, you know.  [LAUGHTER]  I do not know where that raucous laugh comes from but I would have thought that every man does get touched when the ladies talk the way they talk.  I certainly still do get touched.  I am not too old to have lost that touch.  [LAUGHTER]

She was not happy in terms of the fact that I reported that crime in our Province was not as high as in other provinces, that in many instances in fact we are below the average.  Yes, that is not good enough, I agree entirely.  It is not good enough but in the perspective of us ever so often being branded as the worst Province, I thought it was nice for us to know that we are bad yes, but perhaps we are not the worst and that does not stop us improving.  We have to improve.

The war against rape is the war that has to be fought all the way through.  Disrespect shown to women is disrespect shown to humanity.  It is disrespect shown to our mothers, our wives and our daughters, and it is one thing that we as men are always ready to fight to the death, is the protection of our women.  So that is not forgotten, Mrs Downs.

The maiden speech, the double maiden speech of Mr Moorcroft was also very interesting.  Thank you very much for your input, Mr Moorcroft.

My colleague, Dr Zulu gave us good support and a salute and we do lament with Dr Zulu, that the efforts that he has made particularly on the issue of the culture of learning and teaching has not received as much support and as much reporting as one might have thought it would have received.  That was the lament that I could very well understand and support from my colleague Dr Zulu.

Mr Volker always amazes me with his sense of humour and how he can quickly twist things in his own interests, but he has not done so today, but I know his sense of humour and this is very important.  Somebody has said give me, and this is important, a sense of humour and a power to laugh and that is Mr Tino Volker.  We have shared many moments of humour together and when you talk of the example that he quoted, I thought maybe I can quote many more examples.

Being privileged to go on talking for another hour or two or three or four, I think I will take just a minute to assure Mr Volker, that so far as that culprit is concerned, who stole furniture from the Deputy Speaker's house and is still being paid and walking around, I might report what I did not want to make it public, but I think I am tempted to make it public now.

My wife had a whole costume made for herself in Johannesburg and it was sent to her by post to Ulundi.  That was some three months ago.  It disappeared between the Post Office and my office.  We looked into it and we had a piece of that costume as a sample.  It was looked through and ultimately the costume was found in the wardrobe of one of the ladies that sort the post.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS 

THE PREMIER:  That lady was apprehended.  The court case, three months ago, it is still on and that lady still carries parcels into my office, despite my objections.

This issue of administration that my colleague, Mr Volker, has referred to is something that worries me.  We are so conscious of the rights of the other people, the rights of the thief, the rights of the murderer, the rights of the rapists.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE PREMIER:  And no concern at all for the rights of the victim.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER:  The administration seems to be powerless and I just cannot understand.  I still have that lady looking through my letters and my post and my parcels.  I do not know how many have been lost since that one, that was for my wife, got lost.  Since she has been discovered and since she has been attending court and there of course going to court, yes of course, the case gets remanded to some other day.

I believe even today she might be in court, it is remanded till today.  There will be no end to it and she is earning that salary and she is going up and down supplying goods and post and what not.  We are powerless sometimes and I wonder why.  I am sorry for having spoken so much, Mr Speaker, but I was touched by Mr Volker's example.

My colleague, Dr Ngubane I have known for many years.  He was my colleague at medical school, perhaps he got there a little bit later than I did but nevertheless we went through the same course.  He has done further studies than just simply an MB ChB, and he has done some specialised work and has been in it all and has come through to be in Government.

The path that he has followed is the path that I am quite sure he will be leading on to the situation in which Mr J Zuma and I have found ourselves.  I have no doubt that my successor Dr Ben Ngubane, will take the issue of peace the same way as I have taken it, and has a chance of even advancing it further than I have done or attempted to do.

The words from the hon colleague Mr Ndebele there has also been very touching.  He has of course spoken about certain things that I was not aware of, that so many men keep concubines and they have houses that are bonded and when they die the wife has problems.  These are some of the things that he is aware of, which at my age I have not been aware of.  [LAUGHTER]  I do not know indlela yaziwa umhambi wayo [UHLEKO]  

Of course, I learnt that Dumisani Makhaye, that gentleman who is not so very friendly to me.  [LAUGHTER]  And Dr Mike Sutcliffe hardly less friendly or more friendly, hardly more friendly, the two of them I understand are people that are very popular.  I got it from the horse's mouth.  [LAUGHTER]

The two of you are popular in the streets of Ulundi.  The ladies do not want you to leave here.  [LAUGHTER]  Well, well, well, good luck to you.  I do not know what you do.  I have forgotten since I have not been in the company of ladies for too long, I forget what you do when you move around with ladies like that.

AN HON MEMBER:  The next Mayor of Ulundi, Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  The next Mayor of Ulundi oh, Mike Sutcliffe.  Well, that is good news.  Good luck to you.  The path that Mr Ndebele has indicated I think is very serious.  That we have gone through a situation where we could not trust one another but these past couple of months we have had Heritage Day together, King Shaka Day Celebration together, the funeral of Mrs Lokanyile Luthuli together and Dr J L Dube's celebration together.

These are the things that are happening in our Province and these are the things that must be applauded.  Let us look for the positive things that are happening and eradicate the negative things.  The positive things are there and let us build on that.

I would like to thank you all my brothers and sisters for the way in which you have dealt with my speech, my presentation, my address yesterday and I think it has all been so very helpful to me.  I have taken notes and I will have enough time to study those notes over the coming months of retirement.

I shall not disclose the phone number of the house in which I am going to live because I do not have a phone there.  So do not worry contacting me for another two/three months, let me contact you.  I thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS, LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

THE SPEAKER:  After such an ovation I will call upon the Deputy Speaker to make a few announcements before we adjourn.  The hon the Deputy Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Speaker, the first announcement that I have to make is related to a question that was raised by Mr Volker, about what happened to the questions that were supposed to be put on the Order Paper today.  I have consulted with the Whips and I have been informed that due to some administrative procedures, the questions will be put onto the next Order Paper, that is at the next sitting.

The second announcement, I believe that every one of the members here has received notice to the effect that there is likely to be a sitting on 11 March at 9:30 at Ulundi.  The reason why we are making this announcement is because that sitting, if it does continue, will be crucial.  It will be a day on which we will have to give a mandate to our members who sit on the National Council of Provinces on very, very serious matters.  It is therefore envisaged that every member will take that sitting seriously if it does happen.

The last announcement is related to the task that has been given to me by, I hope, this hon House.  This is directed to our Premier, Dr F T Mdlalose.  I will therefore direct it to you, Mr Premier.  It is a difficult task indeed but it is a small task.

I have been told to convey to you the appreciation of this whole House for the manner in which you have guided us, the manner in which you have led us and the manner in which you have put the Province of KwaZulu-Natal on the map.  This House therefore, Mr Premier, has decided that all hon men and women who contributed to the good of the world have to be honoured and rewarded.

However, this House does not have any medals nor does it have rewards of honour.  Therefore those who discussed this have deemed it fit and hope that the Premier will accept it, that in lieu of a reward in the form of medals the Premier accepts a gift as a token of honour of an Ingune cow, to be delivered at the place of the choice of the Premier.  [APPLAUSE]

Mr Premier, it goes further.  You are being reminded that you were the first Premier of this Province and you are also informed that you have set a standard.  Those who will come after you will have to see if they can match the standard.

In honour of that, those who have discussed this have deemed it fit to request you, Mr Premier, at a date, time and venue to be discussed with you, to sit for a painting of a portrait of yourself as the first Premier of this Province.  Hopefully to be reproduced and hopefully to be made an honorary picture in every one of the Houses of this Province.  That is all, Mr Premier.  [APPLAUSE]

Mr Speaker, that was the task that was given to me and I thank you for that.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Deputy Speaker.  Normally I do not allow clapping of hands in this House but on an occasion of this nature I have taken it upon myself to be the leader in the clapping of hands.  I am sure this is the final time that this thing will ever happen.

The hon members, I wish to say that at this time we, of necessity, have to take leave of each other.  This is now the time when we must come to the end of our deliberations.  I therefore declare this House adjourned sine die, until further notice.  The House adjourns sine die.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 12:45 SINE DIE

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	THIRD SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	TUESDAY, 11 MARCH 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:05 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ULUNDI.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS.

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER.

I will make those later on.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE ACTING PREMIER

The hon Acting Premier.

THE ACTING PREMIER:  Just to inform the House that yesterday and today we have the Expo at the Durban Exhibition Centre.  The theme is Izandla Ziyagezana linkages between big business and small business.

This is the result of the Cabinet resolution, whereby a consortium was set up to investigate the Tender Board Act, its amendment as well as the procurement procedures and practices, to examine whether they do give opportunity for small businesses to participate as well as the extent to which they encourage affirmative action in the procurement process of the Province.

I thought it was important to let the House know that we are in this process because the Portfolio Committee of Finance will be expected to expedite the legislation so that it can be presented to this House in the course of the year.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Acting Premier.

6.1	REPORT ON THE KWAZULU-NATAL INGONYAMA TRUST AMENDMENT BILL.

I will call upon Mr Powell, Chairman of the NCOP, to give a report to the House.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members.  I have pleasure in reporting to the House that the Provincial Committee on the NCOP has received a report from the Portfolio Committee on Traditional Affairs, which has duly met and considered the KwaZulu-Natal Ingonyama Trust Amendment Bill.

The Portfolio Committee adopted a resolution supporting the Bill in its current form.  The Provincial NCOP committee received this report and a resolution was moved accordingly.  A copy of the resolution has been circulated to all hon members and mandates provincial delegates to support the Bill in the committee stage in the National Council of Provinces.

The Provincial NCOP Committee passed the mandating resolution with the requisite two-thirds majority, with the ACDP opposing the motion.  Provincial delegates will take the mandate to Cape Town with them.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Powell.  This will now be debated by the House.  I have got a list here.  The person to address the House first of all is Inkosi Ngubane for nine minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  Mr Speaker, Inkosi is not in the chamber.  I will suggest that we carry on with the list and when he comes in we can then fit him in.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will therefore call upon Mr John Jeffery to address the House for six minutes.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, as the hon Minister has now entered the chamber would it be possible to revert back to the speaking order?

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Jeffery.  May I point out at this juncture we were expecting the hon Minister of Traditional Affairs to address the House for nine minutes.  Now that he has turned up I will call upon him to address the House accordingly.  The hon the Minister Inkosi Ngubane will address for nine minutes.

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional Affairs and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Mr Speaker, and the hon House.  As we are all aware that at the 11th hour of the then KwaZulu Government, the Ingonyama Trust Act Bill was passed and then it became law in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

I can say we are very grateful that the Minister of Land Affairs agreed that we make amendments to the Bill.  We all know that the Bill is a national competence, therefore it is already out of the hands of the Provincial Government.  That is why I had to commend the National Minister who had agreed that we get together with the aim to making amendments to the Bill.  A lot of things have been done in the form of improving and making amendments.

First of all, if we come to the Bill we were not happy about the changing of the name.  We will recall that the Bill was called KwaZulu-Natal Ingonyama Trust Act.  All of a sudden the name KwaZulu-Natal was omitted or deleted, only Ingonyama Act remained as the name of the Bill.  Therefore we came together, discussed the issue especially with our colleagues from the ANC, where we eventually agreed that the name of the Bill should become KwaZulu-Natal Ingonyama Trust Act.

Again, we are very grateful for that because it keeps that notion of KwaZulu within the parameters of the Bill.  Again, we were worried about the composition of the Board.  We all know that the Bill provided that Ingonyama should be the Chairman of the Board.  We were not happy about that.

We thought what we should agree to it as a Department, that Ingonyama should have somebody who will sit as the Chairman on behalf of Ingonyama.  So far, I do not know whether there is real agreement with other colleagues in the House, whether they agree to that, that Ingonyama should nominate somebody to be the Chairman whenever discussions take place in the form of the Bill.

Again, it was the matter of the composition of the Board.  From the word go all members of the Board were to be elected by the National Minister.  There were discussions, then it was agreed that four from the National Minister and then three from the Province.  There were further agreements or discussions until we agreed that it should be four/four but only the proviso gave some problems.

So far I think we have agreed now that it should be four/four.  Four will be elected by the National Minister and four by the Provincial Premier in consultation with the Chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders, the Ingonyama.

I think with that situation we are more or less happy, though not 100% happy because we know that in negotiations in trying to come to a certain compromise there should be a win/win situation.  Therefore I think we must also expect that we cannot get all, to the detriment of the Minister at national level.

Therefore as far as the Bill is concerned, especially with this one of Ingonyama Trust Act, I do not think there is too much controversy now after such negotiations, consultations and discussions with other parties because so far I think we all agree, or we have agreed that we should adopt the Bill as amended.

I do not think I have anything further to say, except just to end there.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Mr John Jeffery for six minutes.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, at the outset I would like to say that it is extremely good that on a Bill as controversial as this one, we were able to reach agreement between the ANC and the IFP and come to a consensus position.

I do not know if there is any record for the Bill that has been around the longest, but possibly this Bill would compete for that position because it has been around a long time.  It got approved by the National Cabinet in October 1995.

There were then problems or disputes over whether it was a provincial or a national competence, with the Province passing a provincial law relating to this matter.  That was taken to the Constitutional Court.  There was a settlement before the case was heard, whereby it was agreed it was a national competence.  The provincial Bill would be withdrawn and the Minister of Land Affairs would have to consult with the ANC and the IFP in the Province.

What has come out is quite a long Bill, but it has come out from consultation.  The original Bill that the Minister of Land Affairs introduced into the Senate was only three pages in substance.  The current Bill before us is a lot longer and that is indicative of the discussions that took place.  Numerous amendments were made.  You will see that the number on the Bill is symbol F which means that there was an A and a B and so on, C, D, E right up to F versions which show the number of versions that were brought out as a result of all the discussions.

The Bill provides for an Ingonyama Trust Board to administer the Trust.  This is something that was not in the original Bill that was introduced by the Minister of Land Affairs into the Senate originally.  It is something that was proposed by the IFP and it is now incorporated in this Bill.

There has been some unhappiness over the appointment of the members of the Board of this Trust, but luckily there has been acceptance that as this is a national competence, as it is the responsibility of the Minister of Land Affairs that he should make the appointment with four being made after consultation with the Premier, the Chair of the House of Traditional Leaders and the Ingonyama and four in consultation with those same people.  One hopes then that the Trust or the members of the Board of the Trust will be people who will be acceptable to all parties.

The other thing that the amendment does is that it takes out the township land that formed part of the Trust.  Many of the townships that formed part of the Trust were unable to properly have development and housing projects because of the whole question of the ownership.  The amendment takes the formal townships out of the Trust and restricts the Trust then mainly to traditional and to rural areas.

The Bill also provides for a correction of some of the technical problems with the previous Ingonyama Trust Act that presumably came about as a result of it being drawn up at fairly short notice.  Then in addition, the Bill provides for national land reform programmes to apply to land in the Trust.  That is something that actually would have applied anyway but it makes it clearer by putting it into the Bill.

Basically in short, what we now have before us is a much longer Bill, probably a far more detailed Bill.  The Bill is the product of extensive discussions.  They were discussions that were in a sense not necessary.  The National Minister of Land Affairs could have proceeded with passing the Bill, he could have heard what the different parties had to say and then gone his own way.  Instead he chose to listen and consider very carefully what in particular the IFP and the Province were saying on the Bill.  What we then have is a Bill which has compromises and a Bill which now luckily enjoys the support of both the ANC and the IFP.

I think it is quite positive, Mr Speaker, in closing, that this is actually the first section 76 matter that we are debating in this House that is going to the National Council of Provinces.  I think it is very positive that on such a controversial matter as this, that we have been able to reach agreement, and that the Province will be speaking with one voice in the Committee of the National Council of Provinces tomorrow and hopefully in the voting towards the end of the month on the Bill.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Jeffery.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Redinger please, for six minutes.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, the conciliatory speeches that you have heard I believe are only a lull in the storm that is going to prevail about land in this Province.  We may have come to terms on the Ingonyama but the real battle has still to be fought by the people who live on the land.

I am sorry, the fact is that Land Affairs has its seat of power in Pretoria and the Minister, to us on the ground, is like an electric storm on a Sunday night.  You see the lightening over the horizon but it does not come to you.  We have had very little to do on the ground with Land Affairs since the elections of 1994.  In fact the personnel in the Province are so few, that I do not think they can really make any difference.

This measure in itself proves that there is absolute control over the land issue by the Central Government.  The Minister has a say in appointing everybody but the Ingonyama himself.  That is a fact.

So that is why I say, we see this as a temporary measure.  It will not prevail time itself because at the end of the day the people on the ground in tribal areas want equity.  They want equity of their land.  They want ownership but they want ownership in consultation with the Amakhosi.  The Amakhosi have a right which the National Party acknowledges.  We are not prepared to deny the right of the Amakhosi and their indigenous and customary laws that prevail.

We in the National Party will stand by the Amakhosi.  We will stand by the tribal residents of KwaZulu-Natal in uplifting them, in making sure that their position is reformed, also as far as land ownership is concerned.  But it must be reformed in a way that will not deny the indigenous and customary laws that prevail.  So there is a tremendous challenge awaiting us.  This is only the tip of the iceberg as far as I am concerned when it comes to this whole question.

We may be able to bury this one today and to shelve it.  That is in fact what has just happened, just to shelve it.  Very convenient, it provides a lull between the two opposing parties in this Province.  We in the National Party are realistic about the matter and we believe that the issue will have to come up again on another day, when the real issue will have to be faced and that is the rights of the people who live on the ground.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party had serious objections to the initial presentation in the Province of the KwaZulu-Natal Ingonyama Trust Amendment Act.  We had difficulties with this.

We are happy that negotiations have in fact resulted in what is now before the NCOP as generally an agreed measure.  We would understand that what we are debating today is merely the effects of a decision of the NCOP Standing Committee of this House, made yesterday by a 75% majority, that in fact a mandate be given to our representatives in the NCOP to support this Bill.

I am pleased to say that after reflection and discussions with my colleagues both in Cape Town and Mr Nel in Pietermaritzburg, that the Democratic Party is happy to support the fact that this is an agreed measure and we are happy that this will be a fairly brief debate.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows, for your three minutes.  Now I will call upon the hon Inkosi Khawula who will address the House for four minutes.  The hon Inkosi Khawula.

TRANSLATION: I am pleased Sir.  The King is the father of all of us.  Therefore the ~Amakhosi~ is not something that you can play the fool with.  The ~Amakhosi~ has existed from the beginning of humankind.  ~Amakhosi~ was created by God.  They did not create themselves.

It is therefore distressing when people who know nothing about ~Amakhosi~ concern themselves with ~Amakhosi~ matters.  This country is existing as it is because of the presence of the ~Amakhosi~.

Of all the people present in this House, none can stand up and say categorically that he does not hail from an ~Amakhosi~ situation.  Even those who have since acquired urban residence have their roots in rural locations which are under the jurisdiction of chiefs.  All the people connected with his birth hail form the chiefs.  The ~Amakhosi~ are not something that could be played with foolishly.  The ~Amakhosi~ have the broadest perspective in the world.  One dies for the ~Amakhosi~.  It is not just a simple phenomena.

Just look at what King Cetshwayo did.  He sent regiments to Isandhlwana.  This was because they were fighting to maintain the ~Amakhosi~ which was established.   The regiments caused devastation in Isandhlwana and consequently came back with a French flag.

People should realize that the ~Amakhosi~ is in this country.  For that matter the ~Amakhosi~ of the Zulus is the most advanced and well established in the whole of the country.

The KwaZulu ~Amakhosi~ has a history.  It is well developed.  We the Zulus are the broadest nation of them all.  Just look at the fact that there is no other nation that has 300 chiefs.  The Zulus are numerically the strongest of all of the other nations.

Our history cannot be compared with other nations as we are above all of them.  So that when structures are made those of the Zulus should not be compared or be made equal to those of other nations, because the others are below the Zulus.

Mr Speaker, I thank you because I have been given four minutes.  I do not want to go on till you tell me to sit down.  I am sitting down now.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, ~Inkosi~ ~Khawula~, for sticking to the time allotted.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Rajbansi who is being called upon to address us only for two minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Mr Speaker, a point of order please.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Mr Speaker, I did not want to interrupt the hon member just now, but we have had no translation facilities here today.  I just want to point that out to you.

THE SPEAKER:  I am sorry.  I would have thought these were on.  Thank you for pointing that out to me.  I thought it was on all the time.

AN HON MEMBER:  The translation is there, but there are no headphones.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh the headphones which are not there.  Well, well, my Secretary, will you please attend to that.  I am sorry for that, Mr Edwards.  It is your right to hear what goes on and the translation services are provided for that purpose.  I am sorry about that and I will ask my Secretary to see that people are given earphones.

As the next speaker will be using the English medium I will ask us to proceed, but should any member use any other language certainly you would be entitled to earphones and translations.  The hon Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, before I start, I may make reference to the speech made by the Indian President one Shankar Dayal Sharma but I am not going to request a translator.

THE SPEAKER:  I think the hon member can say what he wants to say without restrictions, as long as it is within the two minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, on the previous occasion I indicated that the only road for progress, peace and prosperity in this Province is our Premier of the Province and the leader of the ANC in this Province holding their hands together, and this is an exercise of a genuine get-together, to walk the road to this today on this particular important issue.

We know especially in the urban area, the housing division of the Durban Metropolitan Council was having difficulty with the original legislation.  This legislation will clear all the obstacles for development in such a manner that traditional rights are not going to be interfered with.

With this, Mr Speaker, I support this Bill in spite of the fact it has been suggested that these two parties are just putting wallpaper over the cracks when the cracks are there.  I think they are sealing the cracks properly between the two parties.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I will now call upon the hon Mrs Downs because I am informed the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi is not available.  I will therefore call upon Mrs Downs to address for two minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I think that we are the lone dissenting voice in the Province at the moment and I would just like to explain why we had a problem with the Ingonyama Trust Act.  We fully support the idea behind the Act, that it is there and it has been proposed to help development in the Province and we understand why it has been put together.

We do, however, have a problem with the composition of the Act.  We believe that it is partially to do with Traditional Affairs, which is very much a provincial competence, that it deals very much with the heart of tribal matters and community living.  We therefore asked in section 2A, clause 3(c) to delete the word "Minister" and replace it with the word "Premier" and then in the next line to delete the word "Premier" and replace it with the word "Minister", which would have meant that the Board which was appointed to administer the Act would have been half appointed by the National Minister in consultation with the Province and then half appointed by the Province in consultation with the National.  We believe that that would have best served the interests of all parties.

We realise that land affairs is a national competence as I said before, but because so much of the land, 40% of KwaZulu-Natal is involved, we really believe that the Province should have a larger say in how that is administered.

It is therefore for those reasons that we did not support this Act.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, madam.  I will now call upon the hon Minister Dr Z L Mkhize for six minutes.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Firstly, I want to indicate our appreciation as members of the ANC that at the end on this particular Bill we have ultimately come to a consensus position where we have all agreed on how this Bill should be structured.

I think it is important for us to acknowledge where there is consensus because we need to be able to recognise where we have got differences and manage them properly as political parties.

The main issue that has been the controversy here has been the formation of the Board.  The controversy has really arisen basically because of a question of lack of trust between, should I say different political parties, and as a result between the Province and National.

I have been proud to be part of a delegation that represented the members of the ANC and the leaders of the ANC and the IFP who went to discuss in Cape Town, wherein we tried to reduce the gap between the understanding of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and the National Minister as well as the differences between the parties.  I am proud to say that the formulation which we support of the formation of the Board wherein four members are appointed by the Minister in consultation with the Premier and the others being appointed by the National Minister, that reflects the best compromise that we can actually all work with.

I must say that the Bill may not necessarily contain everything that we would like to see but it certainly makes it possible for this Province to move ahead with the programme of development.  I think at the end of the day when we have all come together and compromised and reached consensus only KwaZulu-Natal as a Province has been victorious in the process.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  It is therefore a Bill that we believe will be able to promote development and the consensus that has been reached will also be able to promote peace.

We are therefore able to support it because we believe it actually cements the process of co-operative Government between the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and the National Government.  We also feel that the amendments do signify the victory for the politics of compromise and negotiation.

I think that it will in fact go a long way towards normalising not only the relationship between the political parties in this Province but also to normalise the climate in the Province so that delivery can in fact take place.

TRANSLATION:  I wish to confirm that we have accepted and supported that the King should be the Chairperson of the Board or the representative of the King.  Because as we all are agreed on the proposition that all the land belongs to the King it should not appear to be only said by word of mouth but it should be seen that the Monarch is inclusive in the Act.

But inspite of that, what we wish to highlight is that a lot of noise comes from political parties.  Myself and the party that I represent are happy to say up to this point, that there is an agreement that there should discussions negotiations between the parties, particularly the ANC and the IFP.

I think that if we can approach further problems that we will encounter in future in the same spirit, we will achieve success in whatever we are doing.  I do not deny what has been said by some one that there is perhaps a hailstorm still going to come with other projects.  I am saying that we should know where our opinions differ.  We should know if our opinions differ that we should discuss them in a constructive manner, which will serve to advance our Province.

When supporting this Act and the amendments and the manner in which they have been carried out, I wish to extend my gratitude to the members.  Most particularly I wish to thank you Mr Speaker, as this serves as a light for the people of KwaZulu-Natal which enables them to gain confidence in the leadership of this Government.  I thank you.  T/E

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, doctor, thank you.  Now finally, I will call upon ~Inkosi~ K W Mathaba to round off the debate on this one.  Inkosi Mathaba.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  Again, sir, we have had no translation of the previous speech.  We now have headphones but we have no translation coming from the booth.

THE SPEAKER:  No translation?  That bowls me middle stump, because I thought that my translator is on.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

Will the Secretary attend to this problem please otherwise we are not proceeding the way we should be doing.  I am glad, Mrs Downs, you pointed it out otherwise we would be doing the wrong thing all the time.  Can I ask the Secretariat please to check up about these earphones and about the translators.  Are they on or are they off?  Who can actually give an assurance that there is no repeat performance of this defaulting?  Are the translators here?  If they are, may they please respond by actually translating through the earphones so at least the people do hear them.

I am informed that this has to do with a faulty system as it is but nevertheless, let them try it and see if in fact it is  working or not.  I am told it sometimes works and sometimes does not.  Mrs Downs, are you sure, are you listening?  Is anybody on the translation?

MRS J M DOWNS:  I am sorry, sir, I can hear someone breathing. [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Oh no, really.  Are the translators on so that Mrs Downs and other people can hear.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I can hear now.

THE SPEAKER:  You can hear it.  I take it all the other members who need the translation services can now hear the translators. Thank you.  We will proceed and please stop me if there is a problem with the translation please.  If another language is used please stop me right away so that actually everybody gets the best service.  We will therefore proceed.  I call upon Inkosi Mathaba to address the House.

INKOSI K W MATHABA: (Whip): ~Sonlomo~ ~Baba~.  [Mr Speaker]

THE SPEAKER:  Just there, ~Inkosi~.  Can you hear the ~Inkosi~  seeing that he is using a language for which you will need the earphones?  Anybody using the earphones and cannot hear please lift your hand.  The ~Inkosi~ may proceed.


TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I think those who are translating do that so that those who do not understand our Zulu language will learn it.  Because we were also sitting down and not asking for a translation.  I think that is a motivation for them to learn.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  I will not agree with the ~Inkosi~` if he imputes that the members who do not understand Zulu is because they do not want it and that is why they are unable to hear.

Services are provided for, whether actually anybody says in Zulu what the other man does not like nevertheless, translation has to be made and every member of this House is entitled to be heard by all of us.  Let us get this straight right away.  I take it the Inkosi says, as he is addressing the House, people with the earphones are you hearing?

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh good enough.  The ~Inkosi~ may therefore proceed. 


TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I think if the truth prevailed in this world, the community of this region would have come to honour  the ~Amakhosi~ of the region of KwaZulu-Natal for the role performed by the ~Amakhosi~ of KwaZulu-Natal.  Here were people whose land was taken away by means of physical force and by means of guns.  

Nevertheless the ~Amakhosi~ stood firm on the truth that this land belongs to the KwaZulu people.  Therefore this land should not be disturbed.  We also have our Monarch under whose Monarchy we live.  Yes we agree Mr Speaker, that there were flaws in this Bill.  I think this came about because of the insufficient time in which the Bill was presented.  So that there was no adequate time to carefully examine the Bill.

This came about when the IFP was waiting for the King, as the King had not been included in the Constitution.  It transpired that it would not be possible to go to the elections and leave behind our national father.  That is what led to the IFP getting a brief moment and unable to prepare in a proper manner.

But seeing that all the parties have today accepted, I say we should be grateful for that.  I realize that now this is the time that we should sit down and wherever we do not see eye to eye we should negotiate.  We can differ according to our party political perceptions but on matters concerning the Monarch, we should show respect, as we all recognize that he is our Monarch.

Mr Speaker, there are things that confuse me in this House.  Whenever speeches are delivered there is always talk about democracy.  Even at this stage I have not yet mastered the meaning of democracy.

When matters concerning ~Amakhosi~ are being discussed, it is said that the ~Amakhosi~ are not suitable to come and stand here where I am standing.  But you find that those who say so, have their ~Amakhosi~ who are standing here in this House, I think such things should come to an end.  Because our country cannot afford to be managed by commoners.  We should be present here in this House, so that we can present whatever contribution that is befitting for people in our position. 

We are traditional leaders - we were born as ~Amakhosi~ and we will die as ~Amakhosi~.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has two more minutes.


TRANSLATION:   Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether some time has been added to replenish my waisted time?  We as ~Amakhosi~ trust the President of the country when he holds discussions with the ~Amakhosi~, that everything that he tells the ~Amakhosi~ is the truth.  Our people and our ~Amakhosi~ are therefore looking forward to the fulfilling of the promises.

The leader of the previous Government, the past President de Klerk, did say he will remember the Zulus.  The President of the present Government should take cognizance of the fact that the Zulu nations differs significantly from other nations.  Things should not be imposed on us.  The Zulu nation will never tolerate that, Mr Speaker.   T/E

THE SPEAKER:  One minute.


TRANSLATION:  Therefore, sir, I associate myself with the previous speakers, who have said that they do not accept that matters should be imposed on us.  Laws are made so that if some mistakes have been made they should be corrected by sitting down and getting them corrected.  Because there is not always a right thing.  We should always sit down and make those amendments, I thank you.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now we are at the end of the list.  This debate succeeds a report from the Chairperson of the NCOP that this was accepted by all agreements as the speeches pointed out.  There is no question therefore on voting on that 6.1.1.  That ends the matter of 6.1.1 as a mandate for those that are going to go down.

6.1.2	MOTION: DRAFT RESOLUTION ON THE COUNCIL OF TRADITIONAL LEADERS BILL

THE SPEAKER:  Now I will call upon Mr Powell to lead us in this resolution please.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members of the House.  I have pleasure in reporting to the House that the Provincial Committee on the NCOP has received a report from the Portfolio Committee on Traditional Affairs which has duly met and considered the National Council of Traditional Leaders Bill.

The Portfolio Committee adopted a resolution supporting the Bill with proposed amendments.  The Provincial NCOP Committee received the report and a resolution was moved accordingly.  The resolution failed to receive the required two-thirds majority, the ANC opposing it and I therefore move in accordance with the Rules of this House the following mandating resolution:

The Provincial Standing Committee on the National Council of Provinces mandates the KwaZulu-Natal delegates to the National Council of Provinces to support the Council of Traditional Leaders Bill, [B 25D-96] with the following amendments:

1.	To delete the words in clause 4(1)(c), "who are not members of Parliament or members of any provincial legislature".

2.	To delete the word "three" from the same clause.

3.	And add after the word Council, "representation in the Council should be proportional to the numerical strength of traditional leaders in each province".

4.	Delete clause 6(1)(b).

5.	In 4.3 insert a new sub-clause.  "A House may designate a specific member to serve as alternate to any of the members nominated by it to the Council, provided such alternate members shall only be entitled to attend should the member for whom such person serves as alternate, tender an apology acceptable to the Council:
	Provided that any further amendments tabled in the National Council of Provinces Select Committee on Constitutional Affairs and Public Administration may be agreed to if:
	
	(i)	Such amendment/amendments does/do not further alter the objects or principles of the Bill with the above amendments;
	
	(ii)	Consensus is reached on such proposed amendment/amendments at a meeting of the KwaZulu-Natal delegates at which at least one representative of each party entitled to a delegate is present;

	(iii)	In the event of such consensus not being obtained, such proposed amendment/amendments must be referred to the Provincial Standing Committee on the NCOP for a decision".

I move accordingly.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Powell.  That is the resolution which is before the House and the people are to debate on that resolution.  I therefore call upon the ~Inkosi~ ~Ngubane~ to address the House for nine minutes.

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional Affairs and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Mr Speaker, and the hon House.  Whilst agreeing with the resolution taken yesterday, I can say that the problem concerning ~Amakhosi~, especially here in South Africa are very crucial.  Every South African citizen is recognised and respected, but when it comes to ~Amakhosi~ there is always reluctance from certain quarters to do that.

When it comes to the establishment of the Council I can say, One, there was no consultation when it was determined as to how the Council could be established.  The number decided upon does not satisfy us as KwaZulu-Natal ~Amakhosi~.  It is a pity that ~Amakhosi~ face such difficulties when it is the turn of our Black brothers and sisters to govern.

The second point is the number of representatives of each province to the Council.  When it comes to the number of ~Amakhosi~ in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal one finds that there is not a single province of the size of KwaZulu-Natal.  We think that proportional basis should determine the ~Amakhosi~ to represent each province.

Another crucial issue which was not mentioned, which I should mention just in passing, is that of the powers of the Council of Traditional Leaders.  We all know that such a Council is there on an advisory basis as it happens with the House of Traditional Leaders where Amakhosi are just expected to advise and that is all.  This shows how less important ~Amakhosi~ are with the present situation in South Africa.

Another controversial point is that one of depriving democratic rights of ~Amakhosi~ in choosing any ~Inkosi~ to be their representative in the Council.  We do not support that if an ~Inkosi~ is a member of National or Provincial Parliament such an ~Inkosi~ is not to be elected to represent ~Amakhosi~.  We are saying that membership should be open to all ~Amakhosi~, but if an Inkosi happens to be a member of the provincial or national level, such an ~Inkosi~ should not get a double salary.

We as ~Amakhosi~ are really very sad about all the endeavours by certain people in trying to castrate ~Amakhosi~ and minimise their powers.  This happens in Local Government and Land Affairs as is the case with the matter under discussion.

Ladies and gentlemen, let us all bring freedom to ~Amakhosi~ if we are serious about liberation.  The golden rule says do unto others as you would like others to do unto you.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Mtetwa of the ANC to address for eight minutes.

MR S N MTETWA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Without any hesitation we fully support the Bill with no amendments.  One minute to explain why we support the Bill with no amendments.

This Bill or this Act if it is passed, first of all, intends to promote the role of traditional leaders within a democratic constitutional dispensation.  It intends to enhance a unity and understanding among the traditional communities.  It also enhances co-operation between the Council and various Houses with a view of addressing matters of common interest.

This Council is not only going to advise the National Parliament. If you look at the Bill it is also going to advise the President of the country.  So it is important and I hope and believe that everybody supports these objectives of this Bill.

When you go through it, you then find that it seems the other parties do not understand the contents of the representation to this Council because, you know, the reason why these other parties come up with amendments, is because they do not understand these other clauses.  They begin to interpret because I think they are failing to understand the content of the representation.


TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, please allows me to state why we say that clause 4 sub-section 1(c) should stand as it is and also this clause 6 sub-section (1) should also stand as it is.

These sub-sections of the Bill render the ~Amakhosi~ or Traditional Leaders to be above politics, which has caused us so much trouble here in KwaZulu-Natal.  This Bill intends to make ~Amakhosi~ to stand as ~Amakhosi~ and above politics. T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please.  Let the hon member be heard.



TRANSLATION:  It gives a formal opportunity to other Traditional Leaders to participate in the legal matters of this country.  I do not believe Mr Speaker, that if you take for example, as we used to say, that here in KwaZulu-Natal the Traditional Leaders are estimated at 300.  Of the 300 there are only three out 300 who can make the structure complete.

So you can resort to taking a commissioner to the Provincial, take a commissioner to the Council of Traditional Leaders, what does that mean.  I do not believe in that.  It is for that reason that we say we say we support it with no amendments.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Order! Order please! 


TRANSLATION:   Secondly there is a reward, there is a salary that is going to be available here.  Let us give the other leader an opportunity to also get something [LAUGHTER] because if we hold everything they will not get the rewards that we are getting.

Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, he will not draw a salary twice or thrice if he holds everything.  He will draw once only.  So we should let others also get something.  [LAUGHTER]  

Lastly Mr Speaker, I suggest that our opposition should out of compassion agree, despite hindrances ahead.  They should agree while we are still on this side, before we get ahead.  It does inconvenience us by wasting money and other things because of saying let us go we will decide ahead.

By the way, complete leadership does not depend on what the majority say.  Complete leadership depends on what you say and do.  That is what leads.  It is what is sensible, not that we as the majority have said it.  Even if you are a few, after you have gathered yourselves together, you should make up your mind and say others should also get the opportunity.

Mr Chairman I thank you ....... no amendments to this Bill.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mtetwa.  I will now call upon the hon Mr V A Volker to address us for six minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  The hon Mr Volker for six minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity of participating in the discussion of this Bill.  There is no doubt about it that apart from the content of this Bill, which deals primarily with a body to represent the interests and point of view of traditional structures, there are political and constitutional aspects that are to be addressed in this.

The first is that in the interim Constitution which came into effect in April 1994, provision was made for the establishment of a National Council of Traditional Leaders but because the ANC Government is basically not interested in traditional structures...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please.

MR V A VOLKER:  There are many in the ANC that are prepared to accept traditional structures but their actual ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order please.  No comments.  Mr J J, hold your horses.

MR V A VOLKER:  But their political mentors and their philosophical leaders, the SACP, want to destroy traditional structures, and it is for that reason that in the ANC provinces there has been a dragging of feet for the establishment of the House of Traditional Leaders in their respective provinces.

Let me now deal with this particular Bill.  This particular Bill provides for a National Council of Traditional Leaders as an advisory body to the National Parliament.  The status of traditional leaders in this situation has been devalued to an advisory body.  Traditional leaders have been brought into the potential conflict with political reformists whose underlining approach is to devalue or diminish the role of centuries old and community entrenched traditional structures.

The National Party, right from the inception, acknowledged the value of retention of traditional values.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please.

MR V A VOLKER:  Throughout the involvement of the National Party, there has been an acknowledgement and acceptance of traditional structures.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order! Order please.  Mr Cele, surely it is not necessary to repeat that.

MR V A VOLKER:  It is interesting to see who is squealing, but they are trying to claim their position as opposition.  [LAUGHTER]

It is the right that the representatives of traditional structures, who are to serve on the National Council, should not be restricted by legislation so as to exclude those who have already been elevated as trusted spokesmen for the respective traditional communities.

The ANC is now trying to eliminate by legislation those traditional leaders who already have been elevated as trusted spokesmen.

MR J H JEFFERY:  What about Chief Luthuli?

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Jeffery, if I hear some more I am going to send you out of the House.  

MR V A VOLKER:  In KwaZulu-Natal it is generally known and it has been stated as such that clause 4(1)(c) contains the so-called Buthelezi clause.  It is to eliminate Buthelezi.  But it is not only traditional leaders from the IFP that are to be eliminated in this way.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order.

MR V A VOLKER:  Can I request the hon opposition spokesman for Transport [LAUGHTER], can I request him to remain silent for a moment.

THE SPEAKER:  Just on that, Mr Volker, I do not think it is necessary for a member who holds the floor to call upon members to behave themselves, least of all a Minister in this House.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you, I appreciate that comment.  Mr Speaker, as I was saying, it is not only traditional leaders from the IFP that are sought to be eliminated in this way, they also seek to eliminate ANC traditional leaders like Patekile Holomisa.  He has been a thorn in the flesh of the ANC, and is an ANC member of Parliament in Cape Town.  But because he is a spokesman for traditional structures, they now do not want him there.  To put it succinctly, they want second grade representatives in the Council of Traditional Leaders.  They do not want the main spokesman.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please.

MR V A VOLKER:  It is for that reason that the interesting development yesterday was that, in the discussion on these measures, there was total agreement amongst all parties except the ANC, that those restrictive clauses should be eliminated.  It is on that basis that we want to make it very clear that the ANC with their SACP mentors and leaders want to eliminate traditional structures and therefore they want to degrade and devalue them.  We support the amendments.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Burrows to address the House.  Mr Burrows, for six minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to just refer to the process of the handling of this legislation.  The Democratic Party finds that the handling of the legislation through the National Assembly and to the NCOP at this moment to be unacceptable and insensitive.

To our knowledge, there have been no public hearings, there has been no serious attempt to receive comment from traditional communities and there has been no consultation with the Houses of Traditional Leaders that are in existence, including the one in this Province.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR R M BURROWS:  The Chairperson of the Select Committee on Constitutional Affairs and Public Administration, Mr Baba, in a letter to the Provincial Legislatures around the country stressed, and I quote:

	This is the first Bill ever to be referred to the provinces by the National Council of Provinces and therefore provides the ideal opportunity for the optimal participation of the provinces in the legislative process.

Despite this emotive plea the actions of the National Parliament and the Minister of Constitutional Development, Mr Valli Moosa, have set in place time scales which make a mockery of that plea.

Mr Baba's letter is dated 27 February 1997, remember that.  Dated 27 February and it required provinces to respond with committee meeting schedules and Legislature sitting dates by the 28th.  So by the following day they had to indicate the process and by tomorrow we have had to have discussed the whole matter.

So much for the ANC and democracy.  To them it is a joke, it is something they do not and will never understand.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR R M BURROWS:  Their democracy was based in East Germany and their democracy is the Honecker kind of democracy.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is right.

MR R M BURROWS:  May I also indicate that Minister Valli Moosa has already publicised plans for the inauguration of the National Council of Traditional leaders on 18 April 1997, before the provinces or the NCOP have even had an opportunity to consider the Bill.

This serves to trivialise the role of the provinces and the NCOP, and let them deny it.  They make the assumption that the Bill is through already.

The DP finds it particularly unacceptable that legislation setting in place the liaison structure ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR R M BURROWS:  ... between traditional communities in Parliament should be processed in this high-handed fashion and the ANC know that if the DP behaved in this fashion they would be standing on their hindlegs braying at us.

The Minister of Constitutional Development should be reminded of the bitter controversy, and the ANC here know it, the bitter controversy which arose over the handling of the House of Traditional Leader's Bill through this very Parliament.

So we would hope that the delegation that goes to Cape Town, that negotiates on this Bill will in fact call for public hearings and will call for comments from the Houses of Traditional Leaders in each of the provinces and we hope the ANC will support that appeal.

Now when I turn to the particular amendment.  Let us just understand that there is a clear distinction between an ideal situation that we might all on this side of the House agree with, that is that traditional leaders should not be involved in politics and that is an ideal we can all agree on and the reality which is the traditional leaders are involved in politics.  They are in the ANC and they are in the IFP and they may well be in other parties as well.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR R M BURROWS:  It is that present reality that we have to deal with and accord to individuals the right to stand up and be counted.  It is obnoxious to hear pleas from the ANC saying there should not be traditional leaders involved in politics when the ANC know that they have got traditional leaders sitting in provincial Parliaments and in the National Assembly, who are ANC members.  Let them resign, then I will believe them.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR R M BURROWS:  Oh absolutely and we would be.  There we agree with you.  There we agree with you and if you proposed that traditional leaders should not be funded by the State we will support you, but you will not because you have not got the guts to do it.

So, Mr Speaker, we believe that representation and the point is made in the amendment, that representations on the National Council ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order! Order please.  Order.

MR R M BURROWS:  I thought I had a loud voice.  They were shouting at me now.

AN HON MEMBER:  Because you are hurting them.

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  The hon member may proceed.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  May I say that with regard to representation on the National Council of Traditional Leaders, the present legislation proposes three for each province that has a House of Traditional Leaders.  We find this entirely inequitable and in fact fairness should look at the concept of asymmetry.  That is where you have representation of traditional communities, where those communities are much larger, then you can spread them through the provinces.

You know very well that NCOP, as a balancing process to the National Assembly, is equal size.  Here we are talking about advisory bodies to the Cabinet, to the National Assembly and to the President and it is quite fair, and I am sure that that very mellifluous voice of the hon Minister of Transport Affairs would agree with me that where you have more traditional leaders they should have more representation.  But he will not agree because that is his concept of democracy.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please.

MR R M BURROWS:  So we need to recognise in terms of the draft that has been proposed that the size of the representation should be considered equal to the numerical strength of a traditional community within a province and that should be accepted.

Lastly, we believe that the concept of alternates needs to be accepted.  At the end of the day the hon the Minister and the ANC know full well that the DP's overall position is that traditional leadership is a voluntary practice and if a community wishes to practice it they should be allowed to do so.  We would, at the end of the day, wish to sever the links between State funding and traditional communities.  We recognise that it cannot be done immediately.

The problem that the ANC have is they are caught between their communist republicans and their moderate traditionalists.  They are divided amongst themselves and if they could stand up and say that they are republicans so much the better.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order! Order please.  The member had better round up now.  His time is up.

MR R M BURROWS:  We support the amendment, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Makhaye and everybody else, if you will allow this House to proceed with its business without conducting your own debate on what goes on in this House.  Please hold your horses and keep your peace.  I will therefore, on that understanding and with your permission, call upon Mr Ngema to address the House for nine minutes.  It is exactly twenty past now, before half past I hope the hon member shall have finished.

MR M V NGEMA:  I thank you, Mr Speaker, and hon members of this House for the opportunity to address you on one of the most historical debates this House will ever have.

The significance of this debate emanates from the fact, that the Bill we are debating, establishes a Council which should be giving a voice to the traditional leaders in this country, to be heard even though in an advisory capacity.

I must at the outset remind members of this House, that attempts have been made during the constitutional negotiations, to either silence or marginalise the traditional leaders of this country. Treating them like some primitive breed of animal, whose full involvement and participation in a democratic order, poses a danger to democracy itself.

One is reminded of what the former leader of the National Party, when he still believed that apartheid would win the day had to say on 21 August 1983, that is Mr P W Botha when he said, and I quote him:

	No civilised person will deny that there are rights and that there should be fair treatment.  But to gain a clear view regarding fair treatment and the rights of non-Europeans, we should first answer one other question and that is do we stand for domination and supremacy of the European or not.  We must accept that the non-European in South Africa, in his level of civilisation is hundreds of years behind the European and he can only insist on the same privileges and rights as those enjoyed by the European in South Africa today, when he reaches the stage that the White man has reached.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M V NGEMA:  It took about 30 years to educate Mr P W Botha that the mentality of the 50's would not ensure survival of the White man but, that to adjust or die were the only choices available.

Our Province experienced the most hideous levels of violence because of the extent of the conflict which has engulfed this region.  It is this region which has made the most visible strides towards establishing lasting peace.

Because of the hard work the two major parties in this Province have invested in the various peace efforts, we in this House find courage to say no, saying this together to ill-considered moves destined to destroy the very fibre of the principle of democracy and peace we seek to establish in our land.

All the restrictions found in clause 4(1) regarding nominations by the Provincial Houses of Traditional Leaders are not based on any democratic principle as my colleagues from the ANC claim, but like the policies of apartheid, they are based on fear.  They are not driven by what is best for this country now, nor in the future but they are based on narrow political considerations of the moment.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I wish to call on the ANC when they vote on this Bill in the National Council of Provinces not to go back to 16 February 1949, when Senator Reverend Miles Cadman, in the Senate said, and I quote him:

	There is nothing evil whatsoever in political segregation, which is merely to refuse a vote to an immature person or an immature and undeveloped nation, to people who do not know how to use it.  That is all it is.  I would not give a vote to my three year old child or to any five year old child and it is nonsense to recommend that we should give votes to child-like natives.

The contention of the IFP is, that without the amendments that are proposed in this House, the Bill would leave traditional leaders with the same treatment as experienced by the non-Europeans of the past three decades.  Let us move forward to a true democracy for all in our land.  The IFP supports the resolution as proposed.  Mr Speaker, I thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Ngema.  I will now call upon Mr N V E Ngidi to address the House for eight minutes.  It is three minutes to half past, so it is seven.  Okay.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It is unfortunate that this issue has been politicised as it has.  This was supposed to be a non-controversial matter which sees the extension of democracy in our country to be all inclusive.  I am not going to be long but will deal with some issues that have been raised both in this House and at Committee.

The first issue that we must deal with is the fact that the head count in the issues of traditional leaders is a matter that is not necessary.  My understanding is that we are dealing with the representation of the institution and not individuals.

The role of the Council is advisory as it takes no final decision but only advises.  Therefore the point of proportional representation does not arise.  A point was raised in Committee that clause 4(1)(c) verges on being unconstitutional.  Section 9(3) was quoted in this regard.

First of all, this is not an exclusion clause but a limitation clause.  We should appreciate the difference.  The clause is not saying that traditional leaders or any individual is excluded from participation, but his participation is limited insofar as he has to choose to which structure he should belong.

We are given the right to choose in the same way as I choose between being either in the National Assembly or Provincial Legislature or Local Government as it is provided for in section 47(1)(b) of the Constitution.

Limitation therefore is a principle that is recognised by this Constitution.  Therefore if there should be a limitation clause in this Bill there is nothing unconstitutional.  Whoever says that is way off beam.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  The Bill has been labelled as anti-democracy.  It has been argued that the limitation clause in the Bill has been characterised as an infraction of democracy.

Looking at the effect of the clause one has to think otherwise for it broadens the participation in governmental structures of people, thereby ensuring that we benefit from the wider spectrum of talent, skills and knowledge in this country.

The Bill seeks to avoid a situation where there is a concentration of power and authority on one person.  To me that is what flies against democratic principles, to concentrate power, position and authority on only one person.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Unless we are saying that there is only one person in this country who has skills, knowledge and know-how.

We in the ANC believe in being consistent.  We have argued that traditional leaders must be above politics.  His Majesty, the King has accepted that.  If the Council were to play its proper role it has to be made clean of politics.  It will be able to play its advisory role without it being enmeshed in political controversies of this country and unfortunately such is the fate of the House of Traditional Leaders in this Province, that it has been enmeshed in political controversies of this Province and can no longer play its proper advisory role to this House.

I would like to remind Mr Volker if he has forgotten, that it was the National Party that accepted holus-bolus the Shepstonian principles, with regard to division of this House and creating of chieftainship that never was there and that those principles were again accepted without any change almost by the KwaZulu Government.  That must be remembered.

It was the National Party as well, who made Chief Luthuli choose being either a member of the ANC or remaining as a chief, thereby putting a gag on Chief Luthuli to speak and denying Chief Luthuli of his God given right to struggle for his people.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  I would also like to remind, unfortunately the hon Mr Burrows has gone out of this room, but I find his imagination very active.  I do not know where he gets the date of the 28th from because this Bill is only going to be discussed in Committee tomorrow and will be debated in the plenary much later this month.

In fact the DP has proved itself to be not more than a flea that jumps from place to place with equal amount of irritation.  Beyond that it has no significance.  [LAUGHTER]  Knowing that it will never be in Government, it can therefore afford to be without any principle.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Again we should be reminded of the objectives of this Bill and the ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  Will the hon member take a question?

THE SPEAKER:  That is a question, Mr Ngidi.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  No, I will not because it will decrease my time.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, that ends the matter Mr Rajbansi.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  I must remind this House that the objectives of this Bill are very clear and one of the clearest objectives is to enhance unity and understanding among traditional communities.  Once you introduce equal representation you destroy that notion.

Secondly, you begin to introduce the notion of national chauvinism because I am a big Zulu nation I therefore need a bigger advisory role.  Other communities, other traditional communities must therefore fade to insignificance.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will therefore call upon the hon Mr Rajbansi who has a chance to address this House for four minutes.  At twenty five to twelve.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.   Mr Speaker, the question of traditional leaders was discussed, debated at length at the national negotiation.  Of course, hon members will recognise the fact that on the day the draft Constitution was to be passed there was no consensus at 2:00pm.  The consensus came at 4:00am the following morning and the deadlock was around traditional leadership.

I want to say that the leadership of the ANC, in the absence of the IFP, played an important role to ensure that there is an enabling provision in the Constitution.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  When I write my history book later on I will divulge who brokered the deal.  Yesterday we were at a conference about emerging small contractors.  I find that we have emerging pseudo champions of traditional leadership in our country.

AN HON MEMBER:  Like Tino Volker.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I am not saying anything.  [LAUGHTER]  Will you shut up.

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

AN HON MEMBER:  Why are you not saying anything?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Because he is still in the kindergarten.  [LAUGHTER]  I heard for many decades in this country the bashing of communism.  You know, I was visited by the Security Police in 1956, because I gave an interview to German television to say South Africa has anti-communist laws mainly to get Western sympathy.  

Of course, if people want to continue to bash communism and I regard communism as being dead.  Communism is really dead in the world.  It is dead so let us accept that and let us stop bashing communism.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR A RAJBANSI:  What I want to say, traditional leaders are like those great Kings in Europe who say they have divine rights.  Now if there is divinity attached to that, then traditional leaders by traditional law are omnipresent and why should one deny them that omnipresence.

The deficiency in this draft legislation is that we are fighting this battle in the wrong arena.  This is not the arena where you fight the battle where traditional leaders should be and where they should not be.  I think the issue we should decide at an appropriate time is whether traditional leaders should participate in active politics.  That is the issue we must decide on and we must settle that in that arena.  They must make a choice.

I say that there is one flaw in this restrictive clause, and I am going to approach it from the point of view of a principle.  That if a person qualifies to be a member of a structure you must not deny that structure the right to choose whomsoever they want to choose.  If our provincial law allows anybody to be a member we should not deny the provincial structure to decide who they should choose.

Therefore I want to make an appeal.  I think in this legislation and previous legislation the two major parties in the Province have come a long way and the difference here is not, shall I say unsurmountable.  I mean the National Minister of Constitutional Development, indicated in Parliament, that it is not the intention of the Government to provide for this legislation to deal with any particular individual.

THE SPEAKER:  Two more minutes for the member.

MR A RAJBANSI:  There are those who hold a contrary view and therefore today I want to suggest an amendment.  An amendment that after the words, shall I say in the draft resolution of the Council of Traditional Leaders, we add the following words after these words, "represented in the House: provided that the members of Parliament or members of Provincial Legislatures are allowed to become members of the House of Traditional Leaders of a province, then such a member of Parliament or member of Provincial Legislature shall not be disqualified from being one of the three representatives representing that House in the National House of Traditional Leaders".

THE SPEAKER:  Time is up.  Tempus fugit.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now I will call upon the hon Mr MacKenzie from Scotland to address the House for nine minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Speaker, hon colleagues.  I would like to bring to my hon colleague Ngidi's attention that the very highly respected Chief Albert Luthuli was a kholwa [Christian] chief selected under Shepstonian principles, for your information, sir.

Now there are some people who refer to ~Amakhosi~ as chiefs and those who have not bothered to learn Zulu intonations who refer to them as "Ama-cosy" as though they are some quaint drum thumping barbarian who has skins of a sacrificial offering on his wrist.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

I have got a request here Mr Speaker, for you to please calm down the Hadedah's noise which is erupting from my side].  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Let us give the member normal time to say what he has to.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  The origins of traditional leadership are inextricably linked to the philosophy of ~Ubuntu~.  ~Ubuntu~ is the new buzz word.  They have grabbed it and they say whenever they can, they who do not really know its meaning and have never really lived it, with Ubuntu we can do everything.  Let me just point out that Ubuntu is tied inextricably, as I said, to the succession of traditional leadership simply because it is spiritually based.

It is meaningless unless it is applied in the context of the spiritual whole of the African people.  Very few people outside of Africans realise this.  A major part of the spiritual whole is the selection of an ~Inkosi~ after due consultation with the ancestors.  Outsiders who poo-poo this have not really taken the trouble to try and understand how the African people operate, how they believe.

I would ask them to try and canvass the 35m odd tribal Africans in the Republic of South Africa and see where they stand because there has been no canvassing as has been raised by my hon colleagues here Burrows and Volker.

The tribes of Israel, the ~Voortrekkers~ and many other groups received their spiritual direction and guidance through their prophets also regarding their leadership.  It is not a new thing.  It is not only uniquely African.  People who have lost their gift of spiritual insight are all the poorer for it.  If you believe in the Creator, the Lord of all, as does my hon colleague Ismail Meer and you observe an obeisance you are subservient to a higher spiritual force.

I put it to this House, as has already been done by the hon Volker, that the ANC does not want to have anything to do with Amakhosi structures because they represent an impermeable barrier to all the grand plans that they have and in their grand plans is a reduction of man from his individual status to that of a cipher on some microchip easily managed, intimidated and easily led.

Now what about the African members of the ANC?  I ask them do you not know anything about ~Ubuntu~?  Are you not members of the greater African whole?  Have you never had a need to resort to spiritual guidance or are you now emancipated because overseas in exile you saw a newer, greater, better thing than Africa had to offer you?  You are losing out because if you were to canvass the 35m tribal Africans you would find that you represent a tiny spec on the horizon.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order! Order please.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  The people have not been canvassed, as we have heard, and until then we are playing with fire.  We are deciding for people who have accepted tribal leadership and ~Amakhosi~ over centuries, and we here in this little House are deciding it.  I do not believe that we are competent.  I do not believe we are competent until we have had public hearings and there is feedback.  Then it would be found that all this rhetoric and yap-yap-yap of democracy, this ill-used word will not stand any test when you hear it from the people themselves.

AN HON MEMBER:  What are you trying to say?

THE SPEAKER:  Just listen and you will know what he is trying to say.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  If you would like a lesson I would give it to you willingly after this but I doubt if you would be able to comprehend it because you are so far removed from reality.

Now if you look at the other side of it here, when we say proportional representation we are saying ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, [the Hadedahs have woken up again].

We are saying that there should be proportional representation, simply because, if you take the Amakhosi in the Transkei as well as KwaZulu and in the Northern Province and elsewhere, where they have their tribal leaders and they are elected proportionately onto this body, then you will have true representation.

I do not believe that Tokyo Sexwale and his cohorts in Gauteng, have the slightest interest whatsoever in tribal leadership, other than to carry out the demands and dictates of the ANC bosses.

In closing here, I would like to just add this.  That it is to me incomprehensible that on the one hand you can say democracy which has, as I said yesterday in that PC meeting, the overturns of the wish of the majority.  Now the wish of the majority has not been canvassed but we happen to know that the wish of the majority is in favour of ~Amakhosi~.

I therefore believe that the word "democracy" has been stretched out of all proportion in order to cover a multitude of sins.  I sincerely support the amendment.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr MacKenzie.  Now I will call upon the hon Mr Redinger who will address the House for six minutes.  The hon Mr Redinger.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, at the outset allow me to say a few words about the speech which was made by our colleague Mr Ngema.  It is a pity, that we still delve into the far distant past, when members of this House and my party in fact voted for a new leader and a new system in this country.  As we stand here we represent the new South Africa.  Let there be no bones about that.  We were the one party which negotiated with the ANC to bring about the Constitution which we firmly support today.  I want to make that very clear.

The party Mr Ngema represents did not lift a finger to create that new Constitution and yet they are very happy to continue serving even in a Cabinet with the ANC at national level.  That is a bone of contention at the moment which we do not quite understand.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Time has gone on and let us rather talk about the future, let us rather talk about the Constitution of this Province because we seem to have forgotten about it.  Are we not going to have a Constitution in this Province of our own which we worked so hard to attain a little while ago.  Why do we not review that Constitution so that these issues as they arise here today can be addressed fully, that the position of the Ingonyama, the Constitutional Monarchy as such and the role of tribal leaders be defined the way we want it in this Province.  Let us rather make that our challenge.

Then one cannot but wonder at the sincerity of the ANC as espoused in Mr Ngidi's speech.  When he says, "We are not aiming to exclude members from participating in Parliament like Mr Buthelezi, we only want to limit his contribution".  Now why should anybody be limited in a democracy?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Order please.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  I ask why should anybody in a democratic country be limited, limited powers in a free democracy.  What does that mean?  No, Mr Speaker, we have a real problem with that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  We want to hear from the ANC today whether in fact after this Bill has been passed at the NCOP and at national level, which the ANC are going to pass notwithstanding our opposition here today, the ANC will pass it.  We know that.  The celebrations, the fires are already burning and the meat is already on the boil and the wine is flowing.  We are going to have a party.

AN HON MEMBER:  It sounds like the National Party.

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  No, there is a party.  That is all lined up.

Notwithstanding all that, we appreciate the ANC are going to have their way but what is going to happen the day after tomorrow, what is going to happen to the voices that have in fact been muzzled here?  We have been muzzled.  There is a limitation happening here.  Nothing will happen as said, nothing at all.  We in this Province will insist, and that is why I addressed Mr Ngema at the outset, that we must look forward, we must look at what is happening, let us look at the symptoms of what opposition may stand for.

There is no opposition any more.  It is not recognised because the parties are prepared before we even vote.  So we are very, very concerned in this party of ours.

AN HON MEMBER:  When are you going to the Truth Commission?

THE SPEAKER:  Hold your peace.  [LAUGHTER]

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  The Truth Commission will be put behind us quite soon as well.  It does not matter how long it takes but it will become part of our history and there will be hope again in the new country of South Africa with the National Party playing a very important role.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  There will be other parties involved.  There will be multi-party democracy if we have our way and we challenge this House to now come clean as to where it sees its future.  The members in this House will have to think very carefully.  I have set my trend, my speech looking at what will happen in future and not what P W Botha may have said in 1983.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order please.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  We have confessed our sins.  We have confessed.  We have done it publicly.  We have not got a problem.
We have a clear conscience about the future and yet we will do what has to be done.  There shall be multi-party democracy in this country.  Over our dead bodies if necessary.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  We support the amendment.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now Mr Mkhwanazi is not in for the PAC.  I will therefore call upon the hon member Mrs Downs to address the House.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, sir.  Mr Speaker, I think that the vast majority of people have misunderstood Mr Ngema's speech.  I believe, he actually made those quotes, as a plea to the ANC not to treat the Inkosi the way that the Black people were treated in this country before the change came and I believe that that was the tone of his speech.

The ANC then took his speech and they listened to it and they immediately threw it back onto the National Party, which is their stock way of doing things.  When there is a problem blame it on apartheid, blame it on everything else.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MRS J M DOWNS:  But do not take cognisance of what the man is saying.  Since Mr Ngidi indirectly referred to Dr Buthelezi, I think I am quite at liberty to actually warn the ANC, that to write Bills with a single person in mind smacks of tyranny and it is not on.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS J M DOWNS:  I would like to remind the ANC that they have a lot to say ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order please.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Can I appeal to you, Mr Speaker, for protection.

THE SPEAKER:  Your right, madam.  Mr Makhaye should be quiet and Mr Bheki Cele should hold his horses and lastly, the hon bald-headed Dr Sutcliffe to hold his peace.  [LAUGHTER]  The hon member may proceed.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, sir.  I would like to remind the ANC that they had a lot to say internationally, about President Chiluba's Government because he wrote a clause in a Constitution with a particular person in mind.

With those reminders and those cautions I would like to say that I do not feel qualified to speak on behalf of the Amakhosi.  I am not familiar with Zulu customs but I have taken advice from members of my party who are and who have grown up in those things.  They tell me that they support proportional representation number one, because the Zulu people have a long and a proud history and they feel that as the largest conglomeration of traditional leaders, that it is unfair to not give the Zulu people a higher proportion of people in the Council of Traditional Leaders.  So we therefore support that clause.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MRS J M DOWNS:  The second thing is that we support the removal of clause 4(1)(c) which prohibits people from taking - sorry I have lost myself.  [LAUGHTER]  Which prevents the ~Amakhosi~ from being both members of Parliament and members of the House of Traditional Leaders.

We feel that the very best leadership of the ~Amakhosi~ have been taken into political wings, both in the ANC and in the IFP and in other parties, and that to deny them the possibility of being an advisory body on their own traditions and customs is unfair.

So it is therefore, for those reasons, that we in the ACDP support the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now I will ask the hon Dr Mkhize to address the House for eight minutes.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  My party supports the Bill as it stands and rejects all amendments.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  The aim of this Bill is being distorted by the ruling party in this Province and the Council of Traditional Leaders has got a role.  In 7(1)(a) the role is clearly stated as:

	to promote the role of traditional leadership within a democratic constitutional dispensation;

and it is also to advise the National Government.

Our position is that the traditional leaders must play their role as custodians of tradition and the cultural life of our communities.  Therefore their Bill is being protected in the Bill so that they can play a role in a structured way within the constitutional democracy.

Of course, Amakhosi, apart from that role, are still free to stand for elections as members of Parliament or as councillors.  The clause has in fact been written in principle and contrary to what has been mentioned by some of the hon members that it is a clause around any individual.  In fact the clause will apply equally to the ANC, IFP, ACDP, Nationalist Party etcetera.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Now opposing this section which is 6(1)(b) of the Bill, is an attempt to use the Council of Traditional Leaders to get a second bite at the cherry to win under the guise of traditional leadership that could not be won politically.  It is political manoeuvring that we in the ANC will not accept.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  The hon colleague Mr Ngema, I am very glad Mr Ngema has actually reminded the Nationalist Party of their political ancestry.

AN HON MEMBER:  And their true colours.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  And there can be no comparison on the treatment that ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  ... ~Amakhosi~ and what the Nationalist Party under apartheid have done to ~Amakhosi~.  Of course now Amakhosi can vote, they never used to be able to vote before.  They can be voted into office.  They can be voted into Parliament, it never used to be.  We have got an ~Inkosi~ ~Mbovu~ in Cabinet.  You could never have had one like that in the past.  We have got ~Inkosi~ ~Buthelezi~ who is a Cabinet Minister in the National Parliament.  You could never have imagined that under the Nationalist Party.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  And of course they will also still be free to be voted into the Council of Traditional Leaders or into the House of Traditional Leaders.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  The Bill we have just agreed upon a few minutes ago will also be opening up the way for development into the areas of ~Amakhosi~, something that they never had under Nationalist Party rule.

I also want to say that there has been comments from our hon member Mr Rajbansi as well.  I think we have accepted that we cannot serve as members of the different levels of Government and we did not complain.  I would have wanted to be a councillor but now that I am in this House as a member of Parliament in the Province I cannot be unhappy with that.  We all did not complain about it.

Therefore this is the reason why we support this Bill without the amendments.  We want to differ with the suggestion of the representation based on numerical strength of ~Amakhosi~.  I will ask you a question.  How far do we stretch that?  Are we not going to at some point get a question which says no, we must get representation of ~Inkosi~ based on the population that lives under his jurisdiction.  Are we going to get a question that says we must get representation of ~Inkosi~ based on the geographical vastness of the area that he controls?  Are we going to have a common definition?  Are we going to be able to accept, of course as we should, the common definition of ~Inkosi~ in all provinces because we might then find that what we might be calling ~Inkosi~ here might be something else in another province?

I want to ask another question. 
THE SPEAKER:  Earphones please.


TRANSLATION:  What I wish to enquire about is, what are we going to do with the position of ~Amakhosi~ once we start talking about greater powers?  Are we not going back to another place, when we will be asked to determine the powers the ~Amakhosi~ has on the strength of the people under his jurisdiction.  In actual reality where is the power of an ~Inkosi~ because he can have many people.  But if we recall the history of the ~Amakhosi~ the numerical strength of his people did not determine his powers.  We should avoid issues which might lead to a conflict situation.  T/E

We had the NCOP before it was formed, we actually had representation at the Senate.  There were equal numbers for provinces.  There was no objection.  KwaZulu-Natal had 8,5m or more as we believe and it was compared to about a million or so of the Northern Cape.  Again we did not have objections.

Hon member~Inkosi~ ~Mathaba~ has said that no, ~Inkosi~ can actually play a role in both structures and do both jobs and get payment for one person.  I do not know.  Why should a person do a double job and get a single salary?  I think we must just ask the question why should we have that problem because we have got so many ~Amakhosi~?


TRANSLATION:  There are many ~Amakhosi~ in KwaZulu-Natal, Mr Speaker.  We are busy building a structure where the feelings and ideas of the ~Amakhosi~ can be addressed.  We established what the problem is about, and the ~Amakhosi~ will negotiate and form an opinion which will be presented to the National Government as our advice.  T/E 

I was also quite impressed and it was interesting to note that the DP, the Democratic Party in KwaZulu-Natal and the Nationalist Party are getting very close together.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  In fact after the speech by the hon Mr Burrows I actually wondered whether at the end of the speech he was going to announce a merger of the two parties.  [LAUGHTER]  For a while I thought hon member Mr Burrows, had managed to convert.

MR R M BURROWS:  It was the marriage of Mandela to Leon that worried us.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Some of the members of the DP are behind the times.

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  The hon member has two more minutes to finish his address.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.    For a while I thought the DP had managed to change hon Mr Volker into a new Nationalist Party.

AN HON MEMBER:  No, that is never possible.  [LAUGHTER]

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  I think he should have abstained from this debate because of course, even the number of ~Amakhosi~ was at some point increased by Shepstone and of course, there has been an issue here raised about ~Inkosi~ ~Luthuli~.  I do not want to go into the detail.

Whilst on that, the hon Mr Volker has got comments to make about ~Inkosi~ ~Patekile~ ~Holomisa~ and he has got comments to make about the ANC and the membership of Mr Holomisa.

THE SPEAKER:  One more minute for the member please to round off.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  That to me is the typical supremacist attitude of believing that when they ran the whole country without consultation they can actually still run the African National Congress, not being members thereof.  It will never happen.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  The second question is that one of referring to a possibility of second grade ~Amakhosi~.  Second grade ~Amakhosi~, it is very sad that we have not heard from the ruling party complaining about that.

I just want to say in conclusion, Mr Speaker, that we as ANC believe that we have got to protect the institution that protects the culture and tradition of our people and ~Amakhosi~ and that each individual must decide whether he represents his constituency in the Local Government, Provincial Government, National Government or in the Council of Traditional Leaders and not in all of them.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  To end off this debate I will call upon the hon Mr Gwala who has nine minutes.  Order please! Order please.

MR M B GWALA: (Whip): Mr Speaker, and the House.  I stand here to support the Council of Traditional Leaders Bill with amendments as tabled before us.

The deletion of the clause 4(1)(c), that is that those who are not members of Parliament or members of the Provincial Legislature will help all of us to believe that the clause is not coined deliberately to exclude His Excellency, Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi from being part of the Council.

We have noted with interest that the original clause was forged purposely to give Dr Buthelezi a choice either to serve in the Council of Traditional Leaders or remain in Parliament.  It is indeed an anti-Buthelezi clause.

I concur with the sentiments expressed by the hon member Mr Volker, that the clause must not stand in the way of democratically elected people.

While I do not deny the hon Mr Ngema's statement, I want to make it clear that the National Party, that is the new National Party, is unlike the defunct National Party headed by P W Botha.  The new National Party repented ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order! Order please.

MR B M GWALA:  ... and supported the traditional authorities so they cannot be blamed for the actions of the old National Party. We further suggest that the word "three" from the same clause be deleted because we believe that the representation in the Council should be asymmetrical as the hon member Mr Burrows correctly puts it.

I think it is time to call a spade a spade.  It is the diplomats that thrive on ambiguity.  Being the hard-nosed politician that I am, I will not imitate a diplomat.  I want to be blunt and speak plainly for this is the time for plain speaking.  Let us be honest with each other.

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.

MR B M GWALA:  And put our labour where our belief is.  We know the truth about ourselves.

We are not in England.  We are not in Buganda as well.  We are in KwaZulu.  Yes, KwaZulu is within the borders of South Africa.  The suffix "Natal" after the word "KwaZulu" is in the Constitution to appease those who do not recognise KwaZulu and whose aims are clear cut to destroy it once and for all.

The Zulu nation and the Zulu kingdom is a reality in South Africa.  KwaZulu as a concept is not a product of ~apartheid~.  The Zulu kingdom existed before the Great Trek even started.  It existed even before what was called Transvaal and the Free State Republic were established.  It existed before Natal was established.  KwaZulu was a power in the land before any White Government or any National State was established.

It is therefore a serious mistake by whomever to suggest that KwaZulu-Natal be represented by three traditional leaders as in other provinces which emerged yesterday.

The chronically sick method of equalising provinces in this fashion, makes one suspect that in the near future Gauteng province will have representation in the Council of Traditional Leaders because all along South Africa had one King from KwaZulu, but the 1994 general elections brought us miracles.  Paramount chiefs were automatically made Kings.  Kings are roaming throughout the country.

We feel that the Council of Traditional Leaders should be proportional to the numerical strength of traditional leaders in each province because they are not the same in all provinces.  It is unfair to compare KwaZulu-Natal with 300 ~Amakhosi~ and ~Mpumalanga~, North-West and Northern Province combined with less than 300 chiefs.

The King made it clear during the official opening of the Legislature this year, that the Kingdom of KwaZulu is unique and cannot be compared with other kingdoms, if any, within the borders of South Africa.

It is imperative therefore to make sure, that no one can be allowed to trim and belittle the KwaZulu Kingdom, into an ordinary Province or into a Province similar to those which abdicated long ago, in favour of colonial and successive apartheid Government's intentions.

~Amakhosi~ of KwaZulu will rather face the barrel of the gun than abdicate.  This kind of treatment will one day cease to exist either by means of genuine negotiations or other form.  In fact ~Amakhosi~ need representation at all tiers of Government, particularly in Local Government structures, so that they can play a meaningful role in making a genuine contribution and rebuilding our societies throughout the country.

I therefore support the amendment to this Bill.  I thank you, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Gwala.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Do not listen to Dumisani but listen to me.  We have now finished the debate.  What is before the House is not the Bill.  What is before the House is a resolution which purports to amend that Bill.  So let us get those issues clear in our minds.  In fact all sections support the Bill.  There is no question that anybody does not, repeat not support the Bill.  The difference arises from the amendments to that Bill.

Now therefore, when I put this, I am putting to the House the resolution which purports to amend the Bill.  I want to put this matter before the House to find those who are for the amendment and later those who are against the amendment, not the Bill.  I hope that is clear.  Thank you very much.

Now at this juncture I want to put before the House those who support the resolution which purports to amend the Bill we are talking about.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, before you put the question.  During the course of my speech, I referred to an amendment to the draft resolution.  Now I would not formally ask that that amendment be decided upon, merely to propose that from now until such time the NCOP debates that, that the two major parties can have another round of discussions.  That is the plea I made.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much Mr Rajbansi.  In fact I had been given to understand that that is exactly what you intended saying about that.  Therefore your, shall I say, suggestion or motion was then rhetorical.  It did not form part of the resolution.  It does not form part of the Res Gestae.

Now I put the resolution before the House.

MEMBERS INDICATE THEIR VOTE VERBALLY

THE SPEAKER:  It is not clear to me whether the "nos" or the "ayes" have it.  I will once more before, Mr Dlamini, I resort to that I am entitled about twice to put the matter out for clarity.  It is because in fact we had failed to resort to this before we resort to that.  Now once again those who support the resolution as tabled before the House say "aye," those against say "no."   

MEMBERS INDICATE THEIR VOTE VERBALLY

THE SPEAKER:  It is not so clear who has it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Jeffery.

MR J H JEFFERY:  We have had this electronic voting system installed.  We have not as yet had the opportunity of using it.  Can we not use it and press our buttons?

THE SPEAKER:  I do not think we are at a point to call for a division yet.  I will go along with what JJ says.  Well, we have the means at our disposal here.  Give them a trial because if you call for the division there will be conditions upon which you call for the division, the number of people who must raise that issue.  So we are not at that point yet.  Now in that event, who are the experts on this please?  Yes, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I would have imagined from the Rules that the first thing that has to happen is you have to indicate one or other of the sides have it, and then whoever is discontented with that can claim a division.

THE SPEAKER:  Exactly.  Thank you very much for that.  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I heard Mr Jeffery just wanted to test this electronic equipment.  He did not call for a division.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, yes, he did not call for a division.  That is why I say, we are not at a point where we can call for a division.  Now for the last, ladies and gentlemen, just make quite sure that you mean what you say.  Those that support the resolution say "aye," those who oppose the resolution say "nay."

MEMBERS INDICATE THEIR VOTE VERBALLY

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  I will rule that the "ayes" have it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  And then I will rule that the "ayes" have it.  A condition of ordering a division is dependent in terms of the Rule .....

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  That is my ruling.

THE RESOLUTION AS PROPOSED BY MR POWELL IS AGREED TO.

The Provincial Standing Committee on the National Council of Provinces mandates the KwaZulu-Natal delegates to the National Council of Provinces to support the Council of Traditional Leaders Bill, [B 25D-96] with the following amendments:

1.	To delete the words in clause 4(1)(c), "who are not members of Parliament or members of any provincial legislature".

2.	To delete the word "three" from the same clause.

3.	And add after the word Council, "representation in the Council should be proportional to the numerical strength of traditional leaders in each province".

4.	Delete clause 6(1)(b).

5.	In 4.3 insert a new sub-clause.  "A House may designate a specific member to serve as alternate to any of the members nominated by it to the Council, provided such alternate members shall only be entitled to attend should the member for whom such person serves as alternate, tender an apology acceptable to the Council:
	Provided that any further amendments tabled in the National Council of Provinces Select Committee on Constitutional Affairs and Public Administration may be agreed to if:
	
	(i)	Such amendment/amendments does/do not further alter the objects or principles of the Bill with the above amendments;
	
	(ii)	Consensus is reached on such proposed amendment/amendments at a meeting of the KwaZulu-Natal delegates at which at least one representative of each party entitled to a delegate is present;

	(iii)	In the event of such consensus not being obtained, such proposed amendment/amendments must be referred to the Provincial Standing Committee on the NCOP for a decision".

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  That ends the debate and therefore this is an instruction mandating the people who would be representing us in Cape Town that this House mandates them not only to represent them there in the opinion of this House but also to bring in the amendments as put forward.  Thank you very much for that.

Now I said at the beginning that I had certain announcements to make.  The hon Mr Zuma.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Mr Speaker, I just wanted to present the KFC annual report, if I am allowed to do so.  Just to present it to the House.

THE SPEAKER:  With pleasure Mr Minister of Economic Affairs.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, and colleagues.  I would like to present the KwaZulu Finance Corporation Limited annual report for 1996.  I so present it, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Now I have this announcement to make.  A reminder to the Welfare Portfolio Committee meeting on 11 February 1997.  All the members and alternatives of the Welfare Portfolio Committee are reminded of the Committee meeting scheduled for 14:00 at the ~Mnyamana~ Conference Room.  This is an announcement made by the committee secretary, J M Mtshali.  I hope those concerned have heard.  Oh the hon Mr Lee.

MR H R LEE:  Mr Speaker, may I correct something which is in front of us with regard to a Public Works Portfolio Committee meeting.  The date should be 14 March.  The time should be 12 o'clock and the venue is in the boardroom of the Public Works Department in the Administration Building at Ulundi.

Mr Speaker, I ask your indulgence because these notices are incorrect and people will therefore leave this room with the wrong information.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Lee, for the clarification.  I am sure nobody is at a loss to know what is required of him or her as the case may be.  I would also like to take this opportunity to make this announcement.

The KZN Legislature will hold a compulsory workshop for all members on Tuesday, 18 March in Ulundi to equip members to adequately participate in the National Council of Provinces process.  The workshop will be conducted in two sessions.  The first of it is for all members of the Legislature and will provide members with a better understanding of the manner in which they can participate.

The second session will be open to all members but all committee chairpersons, party study group chairpersons and office bearers are expected to attend.  The workshop will be held in Ulundi and will commence at 9:00am.  A programme will be forwarded to all members as soon as possible.

Having done so, I request the following people to meet me in my office please.  That is Mr Gwala, Mrs Mohlaka, Mrs Mkhize, Mr Ntombela and Inkosi Mdletshe.

Having done so, I will now give this opportunity to the Acting Premier to make such announcements as he may have.  The hon Acting Premier.

THE PREMIER:  There are no announcements.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh.  Brevity is the soul of wit.  I take this opportunity to have this House adjourned to 19 March.  That is to save the Secretariat having to write to everyone reminding them of that date.  At 10:00am on that date.  Yes, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  I speak under correction, I think it is 11:00am.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh 11:00.  Thank you very much.  I make that mistake because people from the misty capital never arrive here in time.  Be that as it may, we are adjourned until 11:00 on 19 March 1997.  The House adjourns.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 12:27 UNTIL
	11:00 ON WEDNESDAY, 19 MARCH 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	THIRD SITTING - SECOND SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 19 MARCH 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 11:17 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ULUNDI. THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

A vacancy has occurred in the office of the Premier.  According to section 128(1) of the Constitution which is Act 108 of 1996, that section prescribes that:

	... a provincial legislature must elect a woman or a man from among its members to be the Premier of the province.

The hon President of the Constitutional Court has been notified of the vacancy and in accordance with section 128(3) has directed that such election must be held today, 19 March 1997 at 11:00.

In terms of section 128(2) of the Constitution the President of the Constitutional Court has designated the hon Judge President of the Supreme Court, Judge Howard to preside over the election of the Premier.

It gives me great pleasure to hand over to the hon Judge Howard to conduct this election.  As your Lordship pleases.

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I now call upon the returning officer and his assistant returning officers to take the prescribed oath or affirmation.

THE SPEAKER:  May I ask one of the messengers to come up here please.  The Sergeant-at-Arms to come up here please.

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  Do you swear that you will faithfully and impartially discharge your duties in terms of the Rules for the election of the Premier of the Province and will not divulge any information which may be disclosed to you except for the purposes of the said Rules or when it is required of you to do so as a witness in a court of law?  Please say, "I do, so help me God".

RETURNING OFFICER AND THE ASSISTANT RETURNING OFFICER SWORN IN

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  Would you sign the form of oath please?

THE SPEAKER:  I observe strangers in the House.  I call upon the Sergeant-at-Arms to remove that gentleman sitting down there.

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  Please sign the forms of oath.  I now call the nominator in the prescribed form to be handed to the returning officers.

PRINCE G L ZULU:  (Minister of Welfare and Pensions):  The hon Judge President, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen.  I rise to propose the name of Baldwin Sipho Ngubane, presently Acting Premier and Minister of Finance, Agriculture and Safety and Security for the position of Premier of KwaZulu-Natal.

In so doing I would like to sketch a brief background of Dr Ngubane, the medicine man and subsequent politician.  Dr Ngubane was born on 22 October 1941 at Inchanga, Roman Catholic Mission in Camperdown.  Hence he is a fully grown man of the soil of this our lovely Province.  He pursued a medical career and obtained MB ChB degree at the University of Natal in 1971.  He went on to obtain a number of diplomas in medicine.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, it is not by design that I am, on behalf of the IFP, yet again proposing a doctor to fill the vacancy left by Dr F T Mdlalose.  However, I believe, as I am sure you all do, that Dr Mdlalose has diagnosed quite correctly the problems that face us in this Province.  It is now up to Dr Ngubane to apply the appropriate cure and I have no hesitation that he will do this very ably.

His political career in the IFP spans over 20 years.  He has held executive positions in Government, notably the Minister of Health in the former KwaZulu Government and Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology in the National Government.

He has been well received locally, nationally and even internationally.  He has had a distinguished and successful track record as a politician and a man who is committed to delivery and the upliftment of the lives of all our people.  Dr Ngubane is a well-known man to His Majesty, the King and the Zulu people.  I fully believe that His Majesty, the King will find him a loyal subject and one who will establish good relationships between the Province and His Majesty.

As far as I am aware, Dr Ngubane is very well versed with Zulu protocol and I have no doubt that he will strive for the unification of the Zulu nation and keep on reminding them of their lost values to white domination.

Hon Judge President, ladies and gentlemen, I hereby formally propose Baldwin Sipho Ngubane as Premier of KwaZulu-Natal.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!  [APPLAUSE]

MR S N MTETWA:  We as ANC support the name of the hon Dr Sipho Ben Ngubane to be the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal.  The short reason for that is, [We have confidence in him and we trust that he is going to do the work entrusted to him by everyone].

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!  [APPLAUSE]

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  Will the returning officer inspect the nomination form and inform me of the result.

THE SECRETARY:  Hon Judge, the nomination form is in order.

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  One candidate has been nominated and I therefore, in accordance with Item 5 of Schedule 3 of the Constitution, Act No 108 of 1996, declare the candidate elected as Premier of KwaZulu-Natal.  [APPLAUSE]

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  Dr Ngubane, you have the form of oaths in front of you.  Would you please recite it?

DR B S NGUBANE SWORN IN AS PREMIER OF KWAZULU-NATAL

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  Would you please sign the form in front of you, Mr Premier?  May I be the first to congratulate you on your election.  The election of the Premier is now concluded and I now hand the chair to the Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Justice Howard.  [APPLAUSE]   May we take our seats please.  Thank you, Your Lordship Justice Howard.  On behalf of the members of the Legislature I sincerely thank His Lordship for conducting this election.  I now call upon the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort His Lordship, the Judge President out of the chamber.

JUSTICE HOWARD LEAVES THE CHAMBER.

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  I would like to take this opportunity to say a few words to congratulate the Premier on his election.  I want to say how thankful I am that this is one of many cases I have gone out of my way to allow applause in this House.  This has been of great importance and above all, I see Mr Rajbansi stood up when the Judge left and for that I am very grateful.

Now I have a list here of a number of people who will proudly say a few words, not only by clapping of hands but by saying a few words.  The first person is the hon Mr Zuma.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):   Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to congratulate my brother and colleague the Premier, Ben Ngubane on his election to this important office.  I believe that the manner in which the Premier has been elected is an indication of a very rare quality of this Province, where in practice the theory of unity of opposites is seen in action.

It is in this Province where the Government of Provincial Unity operates vibrantly.  Where there is an agreement where agreement is necessary, and opposition where opposition is necessary and it has all been done with dignity.

We would like to congratulate you my brother, particularly because we have worked with you.  You are not a stranger in the Province nor in the political formations which are in this Legislature.  We have worked with you since 1990 in the effort of bringing about peace in this Province.  You are part of the 12-aside that existed between the ANC and the IFP, which has continuously worked towards bringing about peace and stopping violence in this Province.

Of course, in 1994 you went to the National and became a Minister.  We watched from the Province jealously, for we look at those who come from this Province who operate at the National, with a certain view whether they represent the culture and the manner of doing things at the National, therefore promoting a better understanding about daughters and sons coming from this Province.  We believe you distinguished yourself very well as a Minister at the National level.

Thus we believe that when the IFP thought it needed more hands on deck you were among the first ones to be called back to the Province to participate.  In the short time that you have been here as the Minister of Finance and Agriculture, you have made your mark.  In the discussions on the peace initiatives that I have had with you and that you have participated in, we have hopes that whilst we have worked with Dr Mdlalose for a long time, you have come in, you are not going to lessen the momentum and the commitment to that effort of bringing about peace in this Province.

You are aware that this Province, as we often say, possesses an element in the country that no other province possesses.  It has more parties to emphasise the principle of multi-democracy in action.  We have been able to carry our business whilst united but checking each and every party thoroughly and vigorously.

I believe we are in a sense a living example of multi-democracy.  We could be a leader if we handle that important golden thread very well.  This is going to sit squarely on you as the leader of this Province, as a father of this Province.  You have a difficult task.  On the one hand, to lead your party, on the other, to lead the Province which is populated by many who do not necessarily belong to your party, but people who must feel here is the Premier of the Province, not the Premier of a specific party.  How to balance these is a challenge that I think the Province will be looking forward to you to make and succeed in making.

We have no doubt from the ANC that your election to this position will not in any way weaken the political balance in terms of what we are looking for here in this Province, particularly the relationship between the IFP and the ANC, which we believe is critical among many political parties.  Whilst all the parties are necessary to be part of that unity, but between these two parties because of their size and because of the fact that if you talk about political violence in this Province, it affects in the main these two parties.  That therefore unity between these two parties and working relations is a critical factor for everything to succeed.

We would want, all of us, and we share these views, that this Province must be peaceful, there must be stability in this Province so that there can be development in order for us to change the lives of the poor people for the better.

These are the words we would like to congratulate you with and to guarantee to you our warm support in the process of your term as the Premier, working with you, supporting you in the programmes that would be promoting this Province.

That is why our party has supported your nomination for the remaining period before the next elections.  We believe this has been a wise proposal from the IFP and equally it has been wisely supported by all the parties.  We will be with you, we will be supporting you in the endeavours to lead the Provincial Government.

Our belief is that we should produce good governance, clean administration and you have been part of such decisions since you joined us from the National and we believe the momentum will increase.  Knowing you and knowing your energy I believe we will be able to work very well together.

I take it that our unanimous decision or election of you here should send a clear message to the citizens of this Province in particular, that we here in Parliament are bent and committed to work together jointly in the Government of Provincial Unity.  We congratulate you and wish you well in your new task.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!  [APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Zuma.  May I make this note.  Incidentally, according to the list I have here, I should have called Mrs Zuma instead of Mr Zuma but there it is.  [LAUGHTER]  I will now call upon the hon Dr Sutcliffe.  [LAUGHTER]  No, no, no, no.  The hon Mr Schutte please to take the floor.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, it is my privilege on behalf of the National Party to congratulate our new Premier with his election to this very high office.

The position of Premier of this Province must be one of the most challenging political positions in this country at this point in time, and I am sure that the new Premier is fully aware of this.

I am saying this because this Province is not only the most populous in our country, it also has the most diverse population.  A number of the major cultural groupings are represented in this Province.  It is also the Province where traditional leadership plays the most prominent role.  It is also a Province with massive developmental needs and it has sadly also been the Province that has been most beset by political violence.

Furthermore, apart from the difficult situation, it is not going to be easy to emulate the excellent example set by our first Premier Dr Frank Mdlalose.  Despite the challenging situation, I want to assure the Premier that we have confidence, full confidence in him, that he can and will make a success of his premiership to the benefit of all the people in this Province.  Our new Premier has the required knowledge, experience, commitment and personality to make a success of our Province.  He is a modest man with great competence.

It is also clear that this Province has great potential. There is a great reservoir of goodwill.  The people of this Province want to make a success of this Province and we believe that our new Premier has the potential to make this Province a successful Province.

I would like to give the hon Premier, the assurance that he can rely on the support of the National Party in all his endeavours to bring stability and prosperity to this Province.

Hon Premier, our prayer is that your term of office will be blessed by peace, by effectiveness, by growth in every sphere in this Province.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!  [APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Schutte.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Democratic Party we offer our heartiest congratulations to the Premier of this Province on his election.

It is a significant indication of the worth of the individual, that he has been placed in a position of such trust on a multi-party basis.  It is a significant indication of the faith that all of us in this House, 85 of us, place in you, Mr Premier.

It is, I think, one of those experiences that individuals seldom if ever in their life go through where they can stand and say, "I have everybody in my support".  To be the leader of a multi-party executive is not an easy thing.  As my colleagues have said, particularly in this Province.

You have indicated through the oath that you have taken, that you will defend the constitutional rights of all the citizens of this Province and of all the members of this House without fear or favour.  That you will not favour party over Province and that you will tread the very fine dividing line that separates two fundamental issues, if I can say that, that rest in the mantle of the Premier.

In the House of Commons the Premier, the Prime Minister is known as the first amongst equals.  So you, sir, are no more nor less than a member of this House.  It is from that base that you gain your leadership.  As first amongst the equals of us we will look to you and support you.

On the other hand, sir, you too must demonstrate leadership and leadership in this Province since you are our first citizen.  It has been quite rightly said by way of a quip, that if Moses had been a committee the children of Israel would still be in Egypt.  So whilst there are those of us who support the committee system and everything that goes around it in this House you, sir, must lead and lead effectively.

I must indicate from the Democratic Party that we will give you our support when we can and we will criticise you when we have to.  Mr Premier, congratulations, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  [APPLAUSE]  I will now call upon the hon Mr Rajbansi.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Order! Order! 

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Our Province and our country has had the good fortune of producing illustrious families and illustrious leaders.  Today this House stands united with one voice to elect one of our great sons to lead us in the high office as the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal.

Let this message that the hon Premier's nomination was seconded by the ANC and approved unanimously, reverberate through the electronic media throughout the length and breadth of our Province, because this message of unity is going to spur our Province to greater heights especially in our endeavours to get peace.

Of course, our hon Premier passes the great three-C test of character, courage and charisma.  He has shown these three qualities when he assumed the office of the Minister of Finance, and swung into action immediately to redress the ills which we have been highlighting over the years.

The greatness of the man lies in his simplicity, because immediately when it was known that he was going to be the Acting Premier or the Premier designate of this Province there was no change in the man we describe as our friend Ben.

Today I want to give him a new name, like the Big Ben of London.  From today he must be called the Big Ben of KwaZulu-Natal.  [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE]  When the great Prime Minister of India was to be elected, Mahatma Gandhi gave one message to the nation and said, "The nation is safe in his hands".  All I want to say to the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, in the hands of our Big Ben our peoples are safe.

The hon Minister of Welfare described you as a doctor, but when we send the message to the rural areas that you are a medicine man people might misunderstand us.  What I want to say we are going to give you the task of giving us a prescription, the prescription of peace.  The important message I want to give is, do not lay emphasis on the label on the medicine bottle, but lay emphasis in what you are going to put inside the medicine bottle for peace.

On behalf of the Minority Front, the fastest growing party in this Province....  [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Order. 

MR A RAJBANSI:  ....the June 26 election proved it and as the emerging third largest party in this Province we congratulate you.  The Indian community can relax with you as the leader.  Thank you.  [APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon Mr Mkhwanazi.


TRANSLATION:  I thank you Mr Speaker.  To stand up today and congratulate this young man Mbomvu for having been elected as a leader, is indeed for me and my party the PAC a good opportunity for which we are grateful.

Yes Mbomvu we know you.  We are aware of your contributions.  The Prince has enumerated them.  We deem it befitting that today all of us, in our totality should unanimously elect you as a leader.  We trust that as we know you, you are going to handle your leadership as other men have already stated. 

But you are not going to act like a goat at the abattoir, which leads other goats to be slaughtered but you are going to lead us to salvation.  Mbomvu, they have enumerated good things which we believe you are going to accomplish for us.  The best attribute you have, is that you are still a young man.  Your age is still favourable as you are middle-aged.

We believe we are going to work well.  You are not going to cast us old people aside by exclaiming that Aha!! these old man are troublesome.  Because we are going to tell you that you are at the door.  There are also young men full of ambition present here in this House.  We are inclined to believe that you will work well with them, and you will tell them that they should not think you are an old man.  We live in good times and we also have a good future.  What I, however, would like to emphasize is that you should get into the shoes of Nyanda to work for peace and harmony among Africans in this Province.

There is your brother Nxamalala.  He will be the first person to congratulate you.  Nxamalala and Nyanda have been co-operating.  We trust that you are also going to co-operate with him in your leadership.  Most important we should achieve peace in this Province, which we should refer to as the number one Province.

I commend you to your ancestors, the ~Amabomvu~, wherever they have been laid to rest, that they should accompany you and provide you with a rod.  I implore the Royal Ancestors Shaka and ~Senzangakhona~, and others to hold you in their hands.  The Omnipotent Ancestor of the Universe should turn His face and keep it turned to you.  He should bestow His peace upon you and let you grow from strength to strength.

We from the PAC congratulate you and assure you of our support. Thank you.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  [APPLAUSE]  Now as the reversal of the usual, ladies first and gentlemen last.  I now have Mrs Downs, the lady.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you.  I hope the last is not least.  To our new Premier, sir, I see that we are going to be exchanging the wisdom of age for the zest and passion of youth, but not so youthful that it does not come tempered with the experience and dignity of a seasoned politician.

Your reputation has preceded you.  A young man, I met in Germany last year told me about you and he told me about his wish list, and one of the things on his wish list for this Province was to see you as Premier.  He told me that you are a man of new ideas, a man of energy, a highly educated and intelligent man who could move the Province forward and bring in the winds of change.  He told me that you were his hero.  It is quite hard these days to find somebody making a hero of someone that they know very well.  So I think it speaks of what type of a person and what type of a man you are.

Whilst we greatly appreciated your predecessor's integrity and wisdom, we are looking forward to new life being injected into the Government of our Province and we shall be praying for your success every day, because your success will be our success and when your burdens are heavy we shall be praying for you in a double measure.

So we wish you wisdom and courage and we charge you to serve our Province with honour.  Congratulations.  [APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now break from the usual protocol.  We have with us the Chairman of the National Council of Provinces.  He is not a member of the House but I will grant him an opportunity to say a few words from the rostrum.  The hon Mr Lekota please.  [APPLAUSE]

MR P LEKOTA:  (Chairman of the National Council of Provinces):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  May I extend my warm regards to the Premier here, to the leaders of the parties, to the members of the House, to our traditional leaders, Amakhosi and all those who are here honouring this occasion this morning.

It gives me great pleasure and it is indeed a privilege, on behalf of the National Council of Provinces, to extend our very warm congratulations to our brother, to our colleague, to a fellow fighter, Premier Ngubane this morning on his election to this special position of Premier of the Province.  We do so with deep confidence.  Having had the privilege over the years to watch Premier Ngubane stride the length and breadth of our country, participating in the shaping of a great history that has brought the nation to where it is.  We do so with full confidence.

The track record which he has developed over the years will continue to improve the conditions of life of the people not only in this Province but beyond the confines of KwaZulu-Natal, to impact on the lives of people and the rest of the nation's length and breadth.

Premier Ngubane, we must take this opportunity to express our confidence, that the peace efforts which were started under the leadership of Dr Frank Mdlalose and have continued to this moment will not only continue under your leadership but will gain momentum.

I think there are very few people within this House, certainly beyond these confines who can think about the conflict in this Province without in one way or the other feeling very personally touched.  This is a matter which is vital for us because in promising the people of our country a better life for all, one of the conditions, one of the characteristics of that better life for all has to be at peace.

We continue to search for that peace even at this time.  We need to have that peace.  Each time reports come out of this Province, that so many people died on the undulating hills of KwaZulu-Natal, investors' confidence goes down.  Each time we read reports of corpses being discovered in the grown sugar-cane fields of the Province, the beautiful picture that our country now has around the world is muddied.  This situation cannot and should not be allowed to continue.  We believe that our efforts will intensify under your leadership to eliminate that.

I also take the opportunity on behalf of myself and the deputy chair of the National Council of Provinces, to say we look forward to your joining us in the effort to shape this unique constitutional organ, that our nation has now decided upon.  To promote communication, co-ordination and confluence of ideas between provinces and the Central Government, between provinces themselves and between Provincial Government and Local Governments in all of the provinces.

We believe that your participation in that process alongside your colleagues, Premiers, in their leadership capacities is the singular element that will make it a success.

So we can go out of here and I will go back to Cape Town with full confidence that you, with the support of the people of this Province without exception, represented by the parties who spoke here this morning, will have no problems.  You will come into that process with a full mandate and it is something for us to bank on.  This indeed is a special Province because amongst other things, it is the Province that has brought the country in the recent period lots of problems but also opened its eyes, given it opportunity to deal with the most complex problems that few other provinces could have given it.  I congratulate you.  [APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  I will finally call upon the hon the Premier to respond to what has been said.  The hon Premier.  [APPLAUSE]

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Thank you, colleagues, my Cabinet colleagues, the hon Mr J G Zuma and the hon IFP Ministers and the ANC Ministers.  This is indeed an incredible moment for me personally, in my own life and in the life of my family, my brothers and sisters and all the people who have known me since my childhood.

I would like to thank the Chairman of the National Council of Provinces for taking the trouble to be here on this day, Mr Patrick Lekota, popularly known of course as Terror Lekota.  He grew up with my own nephew Patrick Sibisi in Mariannhill, was educated at St Francis College, where I come from as well and has lived and worked in this Province during the period of the transition and was intimately involved in political work.

He has had the leadership of the Free State and he has gone on from there to lead us as provinces, as Provincial Premiers and as Local Government officers in a new constitutional dispensation which is initiated by the National Council of Provinces.  He has described for us briefly what is expected of the NCOP.  It is a huge role because it is the mechanism to bring provinces and Local Government into the process of national legislation.  We shall support you as you lead us in that task through being diligent in our own provinces, sourcing mandates properly from our Legislatures and promoting the efficiency and effectiveness of each and every one of the provinces.

I would like to say to my colleagues I have been deeply moved by the unanimous support for my name today, particularly the secondment of my nomination coming from the African National Congress.  It is a message that I take in and will always keep in my mind as we deal with difficult issues in our political relationships.

I would like to assure my colleagues and the people of KwaZulu-Natal that I intend continuing the work that Dr Frank Mdlalose started.  That I intend pursuing a clean administration, openness of Government, accessibility to Government information and very immediate response to the needs that will be facing us.  It must be a caring Government.

We must care when farmers, because they live in isolated homesteads, are gunned down.  We know that they play a crucial role in ensuring food security not just for our Province, but for the whole country and they contribute significantly to foreign exchange earnings that we need for a proper and meaningful balance of payments.

We care about the distances that our old pensioners have to travel to collect their payments, and we shall do everything possible to bring payments, to create new centres for payments close to where they live.  We care about the people who are afflicted with Aids.  We care because there are so many young people, our own sons and daughters who are threatened by this incurable affliction.

We care for the victims of violence in this Province and we will proceed to use and harness every measure to bring restitution for the suffering that they have had to sustain.

Mr Speaker, Ministers, Members of the Provincial Legislature, ladies and gentlemen.  At a time like this, one of course, is inevitably beset by doubts and fears.  The office of Premier for me is a forbidding challenge, and I look upon it with considerable trepidation.  I remember that Ronald Reagan, when he assumed the presidency of the United States in 1988 said, and I quote him:

	There are times that I have wondered how one could cope with this job if one were not an actor.

I only did course one in speech and drama so I do not intend to be an actor.  [LAUGHTER]  Later on today, it will be my duty to present to you a fairly tough budget and one in which we are all very much constrained by our present fiscal circumstances.

Since I say what I need to do about this budget in the budget address, I would like to take the opportunity at this moment to look to the future.

Let me say first of all, and with some emphasis, that the future of this country is very much in the hands of the provinces.  Let me remind you that, excluding interest on the Government debt, about 57% of the central budget is transferred to the provinces for the running and implementation of programmes and their administration.  We of the provinces are the workhorses of the South African State.  We have to make sure that the job gets done.

We also do not need reminding that the provinces come in for much more criticism than Central Government.  A great deal of that criticism is justified, and we in the provinces have made our share of mistakes.  At the same time, however, we have to remind our critics that the provinces have had the unbelievably complex task of integrating the administrations which were divided in the past, and which were in many instances undermined by uncertainty in the dying days of the old system.

THE SPEAKER:  May I interrupt the hon Premier.  I notice that the speech he is now delivering is virtually his budget speech.  I would have thought it was a matter of a response to the congratulations only and then we proceed to 4.2 on the Order Paper, regarding NCOP voting mandate, and then the budget.  Am I wrong?

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes, you are wrong.

THE SPEAKER:  It is not a budget speech?  Thank you very much.  I sort of heard the numbers and I thought it was the tough one that I had already been promised.  [LAUGHTER]  Thank you. 

THE PREMIER:  Well, Mr Speaker, unfortunately I am also the Minister of Finance.  So my thinking does tend to be in financial terms.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh thank you, thank you.  [LAUGHTER]

THE PREMIER:  I am saying we should no longer blame the old order.  We are now in the middle of our democratic transition.  We have to make the system work.  Our failings must be acknowledged as of our own making and we should look our failings in the face and resolve to correct them.

I would like to add just one caveat, however.  We as a Province must be judged in terms of the powers, the responsibilities and the capacities actually devolved to us.  I refuse to become the scapegoat for policy failures which are imposed on us by any other level of Government.  There are instances, of which you are all aware, in which policies are made at central level without adequate consultation with the provinces.  There are executive actions taken by Central Government in provinces which are not discussed strategically with us.  There are also instances in which Central Government Ministers take the lion's share of credit for programmes which could not be implemented without the mechanisms which the Provincial Administrations offer.  Let me assure you that I will not be very inclined to take undue blame for problems of implementation, if the strategies and policies prescribed have not been thoroughly tested and formulated jointly with us.

I would like to address, of course, the economic situation without delving into the issue of the budget.  We are faced with huge challenges in the Province and those challenges can only be dealt with following the spirit that has been demonstrated here today.  Collective governance, co-operative governance between parties yet not forgetting our responsibilities to our parties and constituencies who have voted us into this Legislature.  We shall not be sweethearts, we shall oppose one another where necessary and co-operate where principle is a shared one and there is common purpose.

I hope the message that we are sending out today permeates to the lower levels of our parties that there must be political tolerance, that there must be free political activity because without that we cannot have a true and sustainable democracy.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I will have a chance to say more in the course of the morning.  I thank you, thank my colleagues, thank members of this House and would like to acknowledge the presence here of the Chairman of the Financial and Fiscal Commission which helps us deal with Provincial budgets, Mr Murphy Morobe.

Of course, I would like to assure the delegations representing different foreign Governments present here today that we want to benchmark ourselves against international best practice and that we will be very vigilant in protecting human rights but we will also be very heavy in dealing with crime.  I thank you very much.  [APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  4.2 NCOP voting mandate.  I call upon the chairman of the NCOP in the Province, the hon Mr Powell.

4.2  NCOP VOTING MANDATE: ELECTION OF ROTATING DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to first of all add my voice to all the words of goodwill that have been offered to our newly elected Premier.

Following the retirement of Dr F T Mdlalose from the office of Premier, the seat of rotating deputy chairperson of the National Council of Provinces becomes vacant.  I therefore move as follows:

MOTION

	NOTING the resignation of the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal, Dr F T Mdlalose and the subsequent vacancy of rotating deputy chairperson of the National Council of Provinces.  The KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature resolves to nominate, vote for the replacement of Dr Mdlalose by Dr B S Ngubane as rotating deputy chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and hereby mandates the KwaZulu-Natal delegates to the National Council of Provinces to secure such election.

I have no doubt in proposing this resolution that our Premier will serve both KwaZulu-Natal and the other eight provinces as well.  Premier Ngubane's experience in Government both as a National Minister and more recently as a Provincial Minister gives him a unique insight into governance in our new democracy.

The NCOP, as the House which brings together the three tiers of Government and serves as a forum for co-operative governance has an opportunity to make use of our Premier's wisdom and experience in this field and we have confidence that in making this nomination we do so in both the best interests of our Province and of all the provinces of the Republic of South Africa.  I move accordingly.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Powell.  Mr Jeffery please.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the ANC, I second the motion for Dr Ngubane to be proposed as the rotating Deputy Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and we believe that the interests of the provinces will be well served in his occupying this position.  Thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Then we come to No 5 on the Order Paper.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, the question has not been put.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh yes.  Oh yes.  Thank you, thank you.  Thank you for that.  The motion has been put forward and seconded.

	NOTING the resignation of the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal, Dr F T Mdlalose and the subsequent vacancy of rotating deputy chairperson of the National Council of Provinces.  The KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature resolves to nominate, vote for the replacement of Dr Mdlalose by Dr B S Ngubane as rotating deputy chairperson of the National Council of Provinces and hereby mandates the KwaZulu-Natal delegates to the National Council of Provinces to secure such election.

THE MOTION AS MOVED BY MR POWELL - AGREED TO

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi for that.

5.	BUDGET: KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL 1997

THE SPEAKER:  I take note of the fact that it is now twenty past twelve.  Normally we should be off at 1 o'clock but I realise that once I have asked the Minister of Finance to address us, you will just have to tighten your belts until such time as he completes his job.  That I am sure, if somebody, somebody I may not mention, agrees then everybody should follow suit.

Thank you very much.  I therefore call upon the hon Premier.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The hon Rajbansi asked me to prescribe medicine for the Province.  I am glad I am not the last medical doctor in this House because I am reminded of a story of a very sick patient.  His doctor said to him, "You know, my friend, you are very sick.  You are really sick.  I must tell you the truth because I think you must know the truth.  Is there anyone that you would like to speak to".  So the patient motioned for the doctor to bring his ear more closer because he was so feeble and then he said, "Yes, there is".  So the doctor said, "Who?"  He says, "Please call me another doctor".  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Speaker, His Majesty, our King, King Goodwill Zwelithini KaBhekuzulu, threw a challenge to all of us when he opened this session of Parliament.  In his words, His Majesty said, I quote:

	Once again we are gathered here to begin a session which gives us an opportunity to carry out our noble duties.  These duties were assigned to us by all those who participated in the voting exercise in 1994.  These duties must include even those who did not vote at all.  I reckon that good leadership takes interest of all citizens, across the party lines or political interests.  We will serve our country effectively if we place development and a serious delivery of services above politics.

In his vote of thanks to His Majesty, the Premier, Dr F T Mdlalose said, I quote:

	You have indeed motivated us to be engineers of action and managers of change.  We wish to assure you that we will refuse to be statistical evidence of change.  We commit ourselves to resourcefulness, diligence and creativity.  We would like to make KwaZulu-Natal a productive beacon of hope.

This challenge duly accepted on our behalf by the former Premier requires all of us to revisit our plans and really ask the question whether we are on the path to bringing meaningful changes in the lives of our people or that we are continuing to dissipate limited resources put at our disposal.

I think that we shall have triumphed as leaders, politicians and political parties if our people have seen the fruits of democracy.  For us to continue to enjoy the mandate of our people to lead them, they would have to experience real changes in their lives.  The provision and use of basic amenities, such as good drinking water, health care services, housing, good and well equipped schools, must become part of the whole concept of change for which we are striving.

In trying to effect these changes, however, we need to assess the environment within which they have to take place, the resources available to back up the changes and our capacity to sustain the changes.  We must also have the necessary will to make tough decisions to bring about the required changes.

THE 1996/1997 BUDGET

Let me now turn to the 1996/1997 budget.  I placed before this House an Adjustments Estimate, in which the House was requested to approve a further amount of money to defray expenditure of Government for the previous financial year.  The amount appropriated in the Adjustments Estimate is R2 417 838.  This brings the overall expenditure ceiling for the 1996/1997 financial year to R17 748 268.

I have two main points of deep concern on that budget.  First, it is clear to me that our budget is, to a large extent, financing salaries and consumption related expenditure.  Secondly, much of the small part of the budget which is not consumption related, is rolled over to the next financial year.  Our preliminary sums indicate to us that capital related expenditure will not be finalised at the end of the financial year.

It is greatly inconsistent to have to fund such large sums of money towards salaries and yet very little meaningful delivery takes place.  It is noted by the Central Statistical Services that the civil service has increased in 1996 and a good percentage of that number is in the provinces.  The question that arises is, are we justified in spending so much money on our civil servants when the living conditions of the people who voted us into power are not better off now than they were prior to the elections?  If the answer to this question is no, then we need to critically examine our civil service, with the view to right-sizing it and making it more efficient and cost effective.

My definition of right-sizing does not necessarily mean down-sizing.  It, in fact, includes finding the best skills for the job.  In other words, a kind of individual who is suitably qualified, skilled enough and has a commitment to work.  In that way, we would not have to increase the number of people we employ, as the availability of the experienced and skilled personnel will certainly make that unnecessary.

As I indicated in the address on the adjustments estimate, we are not going to tolerate departments that request funds and fail to spend them in a given financial year.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  It is criminal to borrow money as a country, at excessive interest rates and not spend that money in the financial year during which it is appropriated.  The Treasury and I will be taking a very hard line on this irresponsible practice.

1996 saw finalisation of a number of plans aimed at achieving growth and development in the Province.  The growth and development strategy was finalised and approved by Cabinet in July 1996.  The acceptance of the growth and development strategy allows this Government to fully exploit the opportunities presented by trade and tourism.

I have also gathered from my colleagues that restructuring has, to a large extent, been finalised.  This marks the beginning of implementation of an effective and efficient system of Government aimed at limiting unnecessary bureaucratic processes and encouraging the engagement of the private sector.

There have been a number of initiatives that are currently progressing well and have begun to have concrete results.  In order for us to achieve and enhance development in this Province, it is necessary for us to throw our weight behind the initiatives that are currently taking place or are in the planning stages in the Province.  To name but a few projects such as the improvement of ports and harbour facilities, the relocation of the International Airport and the construction of the King Shaka International Airport at La Mercy, and the development of the industrial and agricultural potential of the Tugela Basin.

KwaZulu-Natal has seen investment in capital projects in excess of R12 billion.  These projects are in advanced stages and to name but a few, they include:

-	The International Convention Centre in Durban which will soon be completed and is seen to be one of the best in the world.  We are informed that the ICC is now fully booked for the first year of its operation;
-	Rural development projects championed and secured by His Majesty, the King in his recent visits to the United States of America which will see partnerships emerging with the United States investors and black empowerment groups in the Province;
-	Transnet's multi-million project in the Durban Point Area and the Richards Bay Harbour projects;
-	A five star Hilton Hotel in Durban which will be opened officially around August 1997.

All of these projects will go a long way towards improving the contribution to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of South Africa by this Province.  These projects will also contribute to the alleviation of unemployment in the Province which will have a number of added benefits.

ECONOMIC CONDITIONS

The Central Statistical Services reported in the figures released on 27 February 1997 that the Gross Domestic Product for the 1996 year stood at 3,1%.  This represents growth of the same level as that of the previous year, although for very different reasons.  It was reported that growth in the non-agricultural sector declined dramatically from 3,9% in 1995 to 1,9% in 1996.  According to the Central Statistical Services there were appreciable drops in local production of clothing, textiles, iron and steel, motor vehicles and accessories and paper.  However, economists expect the reverse in the year ahead.  Economists are predicting a growth of about 2,3% for 1997 while the Reserve Bank and the National Government are estimating growth to be between 2% and 3%.

The latest figures available show that KwaZulu-Natal has the second largest Gross Geographic Product as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product.  Gauteng Province has 37,39% while KwaZulu-Natal follows on 14,93% and Western Cape on 13,88%.  The October 1995 household survey indicates that 33,1% of economically active people are unemployed.  Among the non-urban people, the unemployed stands at 43%.

Some studies argue that two-thirds of the population of the Province live along the coastal corridor (between Port Shepstone, Durban and Richards Bay) and that the inland corridor (Durban, Pietermaritzburg, Ladysmith, Newcastle) is also another huge repository of population.  It is also stated that about ninety percent of the Province's GGP is produced in these areas.

Given the fact that the salvation to the economic growth of the country comes from agriculture and that the inland corridor is surrounded by commercial farmlands which are productive, we need to begin to think seriously as to how to effectively influence the nearby deep rural communities to take a meaningful role in commercial farming.  It does not need any amount of research to prove that most of the deep rural communities are still engaged in subsistence farming, but are surrounded by commercial farms.  We have to link the two divided economies.  In this way, we can begin to reduce the number of women who are at home without jobs and these women comprise more than two-thirds of the Province's unemployed population.

Similarly, more effort has to be put into encouraging the location of industries in KwaZulu-Natal.  We also need to effectively work hard towards the eradication of crime in the Province.  The choice of an industrial location is influenced by a number of factors which include the availability of the required resources such as labour and basic infrastructure as well as, of course I must add, the perceptions about crime.  This Province may also not have the best road network in the country, particularly in our rural subsistence areas.

The Durban Harbour is the busiest container handling port on the continent of Africa and Richards Bay is the busiest bulk cargo port in Africa.  Therefore, we do possess in this Province all that is fundamentally necessary for the potential investor to look at when planning investment in our country.

Over and above this, Durban is a city that can compete globally according to the report of October 1996 published by Ann Bernstein of the Centre for Development and Enterprise.  If one or our cities can compete globally and be encouraged by the Provincial Government to do so in all respects, our Province will reap the benefits associated with that global competitiveness.

The Harvard business school analyst, Rosabeth Moss Kanter has identified three ways in which cities link into the global economy: as thinkers, makers or traders.  Thinkers gain their competitive edge from continuous innovation, focusing specifically on exporting knowledge and knowledge based products.  Makers have superior production skills and infrastructures which will support high value, cost effective manufacturing.  Traders specialise in connections and thus transport goods and services across all types of borders.  Ideally, all cities need to develop capabilities in all three dimensions. (Source: CDE Research - The Big Cities Series)

I believe KwaZulu-Natal is uniquely positioned to develop in all the three dimensions.  We have established that our development potential exists both inland and in the coastal areas.

What seemed to overshadow the potential that I have just outlined, was the instability that the Province was reported to have and which we ourselves have experienced.  It has been carried both in the National and International media that KwaZulu-Natal is the "Bosnia of South Africa".  IBCA Limited, a Sovereign Rating Agency, in presenting its Rating Report on South Africa, South Africa 6/96 had this to say, I quote:

	Another key problem is KwaZulu-Natal.  The violence in the Province has continued, and has the potential to get much worse, necessitating a second postponement of its provincial "sic-municipal" elections.  These were originally due in November 1995 but were postponed to May 1996, and then postponed again to June.  Relations between the two main parties in the Province - the ANC and the Inkatha Freedom Party - remain chilling.

Listening to reports such as these, one begins to understand that the whole world had begun to write us off.  I sincerely hold a view that this Government has proved a lot of people wrong.  We have done the right things in spite of the difficulties we were confronted with.  It is therefore not surprising that Commissioner Serfontein reports that the incidents of serious crime in the Province has declined by 14%.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  In the 1996 annual report, it is stated that KwaZulu-Natal was fourth worst for murder, third worst for attempted murder and the second worst for robbery with extenuating circumstances, which means that some other provinces have topped that list.

In order to continue on this trend, this Government has joined hands with the private sector and the police to help reduce the incidence of crime.  We now have a dedicated police team which stands ready to receive all types of fraud related incidents.  This has begun to yield benefits.  As a Ministry which feels and is very sensitive to the burden brought about by declining resources and increased poverty, we shall do everything within our power to support initiatives that enhance investment opportunities in the Province.


BUDGET 1997/1998

REVENUE

The allocation to the Province from the National Exchequer for the 1997/1998 financial year is R15 492 577 million.  This figure includes an amount of R1 360 857 million being full year costs for the improvement of conditions of service which were introduced as from July 1996.  The allocation for this financial year is 3,56% less than the original allocation for the 1996/1997 financial year, which was R14 564 430 million.  I did read in the press that some journalist said that we in this Province received the lion's share of the allocation which is not true because it was a big share but reduced compared to last year's.

Judging from the reduction mentioned above, it is necessary for the Province to ask the question whether this allocation is justifiable when viewed against the economic make up of the Province.  This Province is characterised by amongst other things, the number of people that live in it.  We have an estimated 25% of South Africa's population.  As mentioned earlier, some 33,1% of these are unemployed and a large portion of these people live below the poverty line.

I want to argue that we need to implement all the constitutional measures which are aimed at narrowing the gap between the haves and the have nots.  In our Province, there is a large number of people who have not felt the change that we have ushered in with the new democracy.  It is by implementing proposals such as those put forward by the Financial and Fiscal Commission that we shall begin to have a handle on instituting programmes that assist in reducing poverty.

We are committed to the national targets of reducing the debt that is in the books of the National Government.  However, care should be taken not to infringe on the right of people to equality or rather equity by perpetuating the imbalances created by past systems.  We therefore urge the National Ministry of Finance to do all that is within their power to ensure that this Constitutional imperative is implemented before we begin the next budget cycle.  The National Minister and the National Cabinet can be assured that this Province will continue to be prudent in its spending and use of resources carefully managed.

OWN REVENUE

Revenue collected from provincial sources is estimated to be R759 805 million, which is R67 638 million or 9,77% more than the previous financial year.  We have joined hands with other provincial departments in estimating this figure.  We have requested departments that are charged with the responsibility of collecting revenue for the Province to estimate revenue to be collected.  The estimates made here are therefore realistic and achievable.

Allow me to say that efforts made by the Motor Licensing Bureau in coming up with non-inflationary ideas of collecting revenue, such as the new numberplates, are most welcome.  It was pleasing to see that this initiative was well received by the public and will probably contribute positively to provincial own revenue.

Revenue collected from own sources is important to the Province.  The revenue helps us to measure the ability of the Province to finance its responsibilities.  We are aware that this ability will influence to a large extent the allocation that is proposed by the Financial and Fiscal Commission to provinces.  Further, own revenue assists us to narrow the gap between provincial demands and the amount of money made available from the National Exchequer.  However, we would like to state as firmly as we can that our capacity to collect own revenue should not penalise us, when the Commission does its division of the national cake.

EXPENDITURE

In a situation such as the one detailed above, on the available revenue, two choices are faced.  Firstly, is the redefinition of Government and the priorities that Government sets out to achieve.  Secondly, is to find more innovative mechanisms of financing Government expenditure to ensure that meaningful delivery still takes place.  I will deal with the first choice only, at this stage.

All departments have been requested to plan their expenditures from a zero base.  What this means is that departments have had to go back, redefine their missions, objectives and activities and then cost them.  The result will then be a list of functions in a priority order with cost values.  Obviously the functions that make up the core of Government will then be funded first.  This also helps in finding out exactly which new priorities have been catered for in order to make this democratic change more meaningful.

I sat, Mr Speaker, with my colleagues in the Budget Council that was established in 1996, hoping to hear this message from each department.  I must unfortunately report that this exercise was not done as expected.  The business plans produced by departments did not adhere to the new paths that departments are meant to follow.  I do know that I have the pledged support and co-operation of all my Cabinet colleagues in ensuring that as we start the new budget cycle, departments adhere to the guidelines.

I urge and encourage my colleagues in Cabinet to take personal charge of the down scaling of lower priority activities and increased resource allocation to high priority initiatives.  If we do that in the next budget cycle, we shall be one step closer to fulfilling the objectives of the growth and development strategy which all of us are proud to call our growth document.

ALLOCATIONS

VOTE 1  :  THE PREMIER

The provision of R246 053 million for the 1997/1998 shows an increase of 84,1%.  Included in the amount is R158,8 million for Provincial Lead Projects to be controlled by the Director-General of the Province.  The projects were identified by the Provincial Budget Council and include the personnel audit, improving efficiency in Government and other projects as identified by Cabinet from time to time.

VOTE 2  :  PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT

The total estimated expenditure for 1997/1998 on the budget vote for Provincial Parliament is R45,079 million.  The amount includes an amount of R24,458 million which forms a direct charge on the Provincial Revenue Fund in terms of Act No 6 of 1994.

VOTE 3  :  AGRICULTURE

The Provincial budget for Agriculture provides for the expenditure of R344,343 million, representing an increase of 11,1% on the original 1996/1997 estimate.  This increase of R34,430 million is mainly attributed to carry through costs for the improvement of conditions of service and an amount of R20 million which was approved by the Provincial Budget Council to assist with the forestry function.  Discussions  for this function to revert back to National level are ongoing.

VOTE 4  :  ECONOMIC AFFAIRS AND TOURISM

The provision of R113,23 million for 1997/1998 shows an increase of R4,989 million (4,4%) under this vote and is mainly attributable to an increased provision for Tourism as well as an additional allocation for the carry through costs for the improvements of conditions of service.

VOTE 5  :  EDUCATION AND CULTURE

The estimated expenditure of the Department of Education and Culture for 1997/1998 amounts to R6 124,684 million, representing a 4,1% increase over the 1996/1997 estimate, mainly accounted for by the carry through costs of improvements in conditions of service.

VOTE 6  :  FINANCE AND AUXILIARY SERVICES

For the 1997/1998 financial year, the Department of Finance has a total estimated expenditure of R168,211 million, representing a decrease of R10 million or 5,8% on the previous year's figures.  The main reason for this decrease is due to budget cuts on Information Technology and the withdrawal of the subsidies to cafeterias in Government buildings.

VOTE 7  :  HEALTH

The 1997/1998 budget for the Department of Health is R3 713,269 million, representing an increase of 14,6% over the 1996/1997 estimate.  The increase of R473,742 million can primarily be ascribed to the carry through costs relating to the improvements of conditions of service.  The budget also includes an amount of R40 million, approved by the Provincial Budget Council, towards the hospital upgrading programme.

VOTE 8  :  LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING

An amount of R996,28 million is provided on the vote of the Department of Local Government and Housing for the 1997/1998 financial year, representing a reduction of 3,2% relative to the 1996/1997 estimate.  I regret this, because if there was one area for possible job creation it is in housing and we all know that housing represents an important area for inward industrialisation.  However, we are achieving success in partnerships with the private sector and therefore I am confident that actual housing delivery will not suffer.

VOTE 9  :  SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICES

The 1997/1998 allocation to the South African Police Services amounts to R3,191 million, which shows an increase of 1,2% on the 1996/1997 figure.  This increase is mainly as a result of carry through costs for the improvement of conditions of service.  Before the people of KwaZulu-Natal are alarmed, we do not carry the responsibility for a lot of police work.  It is still through the National Government.  We hope that these functions will be devolved to us and if that happens obviously the police vote will show a very significant increase.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  

VOTE 10  :  PROVINCIAL SERVICE COMMISSION

The 1997/1998 allocation for this Department is R8,756 million, which is a decrease of R3,486 million or 28,48% on the previous year's original figure.  This reduction in budget is as a result of the recommendation of the Provincial Budget Council.

VOTE 11 :  TRADITIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS

Provision for the Department of Traditional and Environmental Affairs in 1997/1998 amounts to R190,769 million, which is 6,1% higher than the 1996/1997 estimate.  The major portion of the increase of R10,884 million can primarily be ascribed to the carry through costs for the improvement of conditions of service.

VOTE 12  :  TRANSPORT

The 1997/1998 budget makes provision for expenditure of R598,175 million on the Department of Transport vote, representing a decrease of R14,574 million or 2,4% over the 1996/1997 estimate.  The area most affected by this reduction in funds is Programme 2: Roads, including construction and community access roads.  I am most unhappy about this and of course Treasury is now engaged with the Ministry and Department of Transport in finding alternative ways of raising project finance possibly from development agencies or even from commercial finance houses.  I am unhappy about this because improved roads to the rural subsistence areas are part of our core strategy.  I would like to promise that the decrease therefore is temporary.

VOTE 13  :  SOCIAL WELFARE

For the 1997/1998 financial year, a total amount of R3 354,043 million is provided through the provincial budget for Social Welfare Services.  The increase of R363,288 million or 8,5% can be mainly attributed to an increased allocation which was made available for this function.  A total amount of R3 038,157 million has been allocated for the payment of social grants and includes an amount of R213,875 million to cater for the improvement of social pensions with effect from 1 July 1997.

VOTE 14  :  WORKS

The Works budget in 1997/1998 amounts to R549,719 million representing an 8,3% increase over the 1996/1997 estimate.  The budget includes a provision of R70,8 million for the new office complex in Ulundi.

POLICY ISSUES

Mr Speaker, on the basis of this picture I have painted, we need to find as a matter of extreme urgency, mechanisms that can begin to spread our financial burdens over time, but at the same time addressing our immediate backlogs and pressing needs.  In this regard, I look to the private sector to engage us in discussions which could help us achieve this objective.  I am well aware that the private sector is profit orientated.  In this Province, however, we have a commitment of partnership from both labour and business.  It is in this spirit that we enjoin the private sector to think with us on how best to achieve this at a price that Government can afford.

The provision of health, education and welfare services represents a significant portion of Government expenditure in this Province, in the country and worldwide for that matter.  This is the case in both developed and underdeveloped economies.  Consequently, governments have been investigating options for involving the private sector in addressing the challenges of meeting the growing demand for new and improved services.  Public-Private Finance Initiatives have been implemented in some parts of the world such as the United Kingdom.

MODELS

There are a variety of models that have been tested and seemed to hasten delivery and at the same time reduced the burden to the State.  These are:

-	Design-build/Rehabilitate-Operate.  What is known as DBFO schemes.
-	Management contracts for facilities management.

DBFO SCHEMES

The main feature of the DBFO model is that it entails the construction of new facilities, or rehabilitation of existing facilities by a private sector operator.  A contract is concluded between a private sector entity for the management of non-core functions, such as administration, catering, cleaning, security, maintenance and so.  Professional staff, such as teachers, in the case of schools, and clinical personnel, in the case of health, hospitals and clinics, are employed and paid by the responsible public sector entity.

Contracts are awarded on the basis of a competitive bidding process.  Payment of a management fee to the private sector operator is on the basis of performance, such as provision of a service to a pre-agreed standard.  Ownership of the facility reverts to the public sector on expiry or termination of the contract.

Appropriately structured deals have the following potential advantages:

-	Increased efficiency of services;
-	A competitive bidding process which minimises recurrent cost implications for the public sector entity;
-	The initial capital investment being borne by the private sector; and
-	The public sector entity being relieved of the administrative and managerial responsibility for the management of the facility.

FACILITIES MANAGEMENT CONTRACTS

This type of arrangement usually involves contracting out of all non-core functions or individual functions, such as heating, laundry, catering and so on to private sector operators.  These contracts are appropriate in instances where existing physical facilities are adequate, and require no extension or rehabilitation.  Similar benefits as those stated above hold in this scheme as well.  To a large extent our governments have already implemented this scheme in some services, but I believe there is much more that can still be done in this way.

POSSIBLE CANDIDATES FOR THESE SCHEMES

In view of the current fiscal constraints, my colleagues are encouraged to begin studies in the delivery of health and education.  We need to free up resources in the short to medium term so that we are able to deliver on those aspects of governance that cannot be dealt with otherwise.

PAYMENT OF WELFARE PENSIONS INTO BANKING ACCOUNTS

As a drive towards achieving efficiency of service delivery at the lowest possible cost, my colleague, the Minister of Social Welfare and his Department, have made suggestions in this regard.  Their immediate problem, however, is the non-existence of facilities such as banks in the larger parts of the Province.  Further, social pensions are monies that to a large extent get withdrawn to the last cent in a month.  However, having money paid into a banking account does increase the propensity to save.  Therefore, bankers should also consider this jointly with the Department in order to establish how best this can be done.  The Department is encouraged to make a pilot project in those areas where facilities exist.  I believe that in this way, substantial savings could be achieved and fraud would be greatly minimised.

PROCUREMENT REFORMS

The executive of this Province believes that economic growth is possible through effective involvement of small, medium and micro enterprises, the SMMEs.  It is in this context that Cabinet resolved to investigate the necessity to change procurement policies and processes.  The investigation has been concluded and the Tender Board Amendment Bill is now ready for the Legislature.

The broad objectives of procurement reform are to ensure that the impact of apartheid on the economy of the Province be redressed to achieve equity in our society.  Procurement policies and processes must therefore be conducive to allowing full participation of previously disadvantaged sectors of our society in the economy of our Province.  The empowerment of the SMME sector will enhance the development of a vibrant economy.  Such empowerment should be managed such that it does not alienate, jeopardise or damage larger and more established businesses.  Instead, both large and small businesses need to compliment each other in joint ventures and other mechanisms in order to ensure long term sustainability of all.

CONCLUSION

My greatest regret is that I have had to announce a budget in which such a large proportion of the increases in allocations are earmarked for improvements in the conditions of service in the Province.  Not that I begrudge civil servants the improvements, which in most cases are very necessary and very well deserved towards the improvement of efficiency.

What I regret is that I have not been able to announce more substantial allocations to capital projects, to the expansion of our infrastructure and to human resource development.  This, as you know, is a substantial measure due to the current attempts in the country as a whole to reduce the Government deficit before borrowing.

What I can offer as some solace at the present time is that the models we have outlined for partnerships with the private sector, and for the out-contracting of many non-core services will be taken very seriously indeed.  I would like to assure you that underneath the sometimes discouraging figures I have presented, is an intention to lift the level of service delivery.  As a matter of fact, I am going to constitute a very small administrative review mechanism, including persons from the private sector, to make absolutely sure that we utilise every opportunity to reduce our own costs and add value to our administration through co-operative ventures with the private sector.

Mr Speaker, we are in a period of transition away from Government which existed very substantially to keep its own house in order.  We have to become a development administration in the fullest sense, and the emphasis which we will place on zero-based budgeting will be the main instrument to achieve this purpose.  As I have admitted, we have made a slow start but this coming year will see us getting it right.  This much we owe this Province and our people.

Allow me to pay tribute to my friend, mentor and leader, the former Premier of this Province, Dr Frank Mdlalose for the firm and solid base that he left for us to continue from.  To Nyanda, I say your contributions to the Province and the history you have written for us will never be forgotten.  I also want to thank the members of the Budget Council for the efforts they have put in drawing up this budget.  To my Cabinet colleagues, I thank you for the understanding and support during the drawing up of our budget.

I table at this stage, Mr Speaker, the Appropriation Bill 1997 and the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the financial year ending 31 March 1998.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!  [APPLAUSE]

THE SPEAKER:  I had promised you that you would have to tighten your belts because we have had to listen to the Minister of Finance.  I think what we will do now, we will adjourn for lunch and come back at, I suppose at 3:00pm but I do not know.

AN HON MEMBER:  3:00pm.

THE SPEAKER:  3:00pm.  Well, we will adjourn and come back at 3:00pm.  House adjourns.  Order! Order please. 

	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 13:13
	RESUMED AT 15:09

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

MR D H MAKHAYE:   Mr Speaker, I wish to table the following reports from the Portfolio Committee on Finance.  A report on the Adjustments Estimate Bill 1997 and a report on the Tender Board Amendment Bill 1997.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Makhaye.  There being no further tabling.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House:

	That the House congratulates our Premier and Minister of Finance on the innovative and progressive ideas on the enhancement of public sector delivery and that the House wholeheartedly endorse the initiative to pursue partnerships with the private sector, privatising non-core functions and constituting an administrative review mechanism to ensure the cost of Government is contained but value added to the administration in the best possible way.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Rehman.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of Parliament:

	This House noting:

	The intention of the National Department of Education to introduce a system of Education known as "outcomes based education" (OBE).  This innovation has been conceived as an implementation strategy for phasing in a new curriculum in general and further education and training.  

	This system of proposed education is totally inappropriate and this is apparent.  It was proved inadequate in Australia after a Trial Period.

	This House Hence resolves:

	To oppose this concept of outer based education as proposed at present as not being in the interest of education and learning in this Province.

Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Ngema, you had indicated your desire.

MR M V NGEMA:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move on the next sitting day of this House as follows:

	THAT THIS HOUSE HAVING NOTED:

	1.	The proposal contained in the former Premier of KwaZulu-Natal, Dr F T Mdlalose's economic vision for the Province evolving around among many factors, the development of the corridor along the uTukela River basin with a road-link between Ulundi and Pietermaritzburg cities.

	2.	The cost incurred by this Parliament in travel between Ulundi and Pietermaritzburg via Durban for both members of Parliament and Government officials.

	3.	The high level of poverty and unemployment experienced by inaccessible communities along the area falling between Ulundi and Pietermaritzburg including Nkandla, uTukela, Kranskop and Greytown.


	NOW THEREFORE RESOLVES:

	1.	To instruct the Premier and the Cabinet to investigate urgent ways of attracting investments to enhance the vision of Dr F T Mdlalose as supported by the findings of Deloitte and Touche on the development of the uTukela basin concept.

	2.	To instruct the Provincial Ministry of Roads and Transport to take all steps necessary to make Ulundi and Pietermaritzburg accessible to each other with adequate road links.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Haygarth.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, I will move as an unopposed motion in terms of Rule 104(g) on the next sitting day:

	THAT THIS HOUSE NOTES:

	(a)	that the Minister of Finance has indicated that Local Government must rely on its rates tax base and service charges;

	(b)	that Minister Valli Moosa has stated that the financial straits of many local authorities may have been exaggerated and refers to what may have been traditional cash flow problems;

	(c)	That the two Ministers have now stated that financially embattled Local Governments should restructure fundamentally before the next election,

	and now requests the Minister of Local Government and Housing to report on the state of Local Government in KwaZulu-Natal with particular reference to:

	(a)	the extent of budget deficits currently being carried forward by local authorities in the 1996/97 Financial year;

	(b)	the amount of outstanding rates and service charges being carried by local authorities as at 31 December 1996, and the increase of such debts on 31 December 1995;

	(c)	the number of small local authorities which are experiencing financial problems;

	d)	the extent of advice and support services given (a)
		by this department and (b) by consultants to local authorities experiencing difficulties;

	e)	the extent of rates and service charge boycotts still existing in the Province; and

	f)	the action the Minister proposes taking in respect of local authorities currently experiencing financial problems.

Thank you.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  I am a little bit concerned because an unopposed motion usually gets dealt with certainly at the level of Whips before a meeting and it is difficult, I think the broad intent seems reasonable, but I think that it would be wrong for us to accept that without having actually had sight of the motion.  Could we suggest that we do not accept it as an unopposed motion.  We find some mechanism that we maybe look at it over the course of the rest of today and then come back and deal with it later.  Usually unopposed motions get dealt with through the Whips and certainly our Whip has not had sight of it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, are you responding to this question?  I would assume that the mover of the motion accepts that position.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, I think it is merely requesting a report.  I do not think that that should cause a problem to any of my colleagues.  I am quite happy for them to have a look at it and the actual wording, but it merely requests a report.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, I think to the hon member if I could just say, that the proposal as having been put forward now of how to deal with that motion actually assists me in ensuring that we do not go into the question right now of whether people oppose it or do not oppose it.  So it would just be a process of consultation amongst the Whips then it will be either an opposed or unopposed motion.  Can that be acceptable and we dispense with the question?  Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, might I suggest that whist the hon member moved it under 104(g) as an unopposed motion it has apparently been opposed.  So it is no longer an unopposed motion so it therefore becomes a motion that normally goes onto the Order Paper as normal.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, I think, Mr Burrows, if we can be fair to the hon member.  I think what was being done here was to try and see if the motion could not be circulated, and that the Whips see it and if it is an unopposed motion, in other words, I would use some powers in terms of the Rules not to arrive at a decision in relation to this motion in terms of 104(g), at the moment.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, I am happy with that ruling.  And we can after responding to their view decide on what to do.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Somewhere during the business we will deal with that motion then.  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, as the hon Mr Sutcliffe has pointed out, there is a clear procedure for unopposed motions.  Now I did listen to the hon member and the hon Minister also listened and it is the sort of stuff which sounds as though we could support it.  But really, we cannot just on the trot support unopposed motions.  So we can look to another way of providing the information the hon member wants.  He can probably consult with the Minister but really, as things stand at the moment, the IFP could not support that motion.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That puts me now in a difficult position again.  I will take the motion as not being dealt with at the moment until that consultation takes place.  Thank you.  Mr Burrows had indicated a desire to speak.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I give notice that on the next sitting day I will move:

	THIS HOUSE
	
	Noting the considerable shift in Budgeted resource allocation from developmental areas to the funding of employed staff, including improvement of conditions of service, and noting further that national financial allocations to this Province does not fully or adequately fund such remuneration alterations nationally agreed to and imposed on this Province.

	THEREFORE

	Calls on the National Government not to subscribe to any employed staff improvement of conditions of service unless it is willing to fully fund Provinces regarding such provincially implemented improvements and further on this House to reject any such unfunded mandates imposed on KwaZulu-Natal.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, you had indicated your desire to speak.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I will give the female member the opportunity if you agree.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice to this hon House that I will move the following motion on the next sitting day:

	1.	Noting that this week is Constitution Week, and that the Constitutional Assembly is distributing countrywide over seven million copies of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, and that the Constitution is available in all the official languages of our country.

	2.	RESOLVES 

		To play an active part in popularising the Constitution and to promote respect for, adherence to and understanding of our new Constitution amongst all Members of our Legislature and the people of KwaZulu-Natal.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I may state that in submitting this notice of motion I have taken due regard to the new interim Rule that a member is restricted to one notice which will shall not exceed 250 words.

AN HON MEMBER:  Well done.  You have already used up 100.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows.  If the Premier could listen.

	That this hon House, having noted with deep appreciation the efforts of our hon Acting Premier and the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism to promote small, medium and micro enterprises in a new procurement policy that is being determined by the hon Minister of Finance in order to redress past imbalances and injustices, and also having noted how very strong economies have been built in countries where there were genuine promotion of SMME, and also noting with regret that the entire R575 million textbook orders were grabbed by one giant group using four different fronts, now calls upon the hon Premier to ensure the following:

	1.	That in all actions of the various state Departments SMME be promoted and such programmes be monitored.

	2.	That there be no unequal competition and unfair trade practices by allowing publishers, wholesalers or manufacturers to compete with retailers.

	3.	That land be made available at reasonable prices to promote SMME's.

	4.	That the policy in respect of promotion of SMME's also be applicable to structures that are established in terms of any National and Provincial laws such as water boards, the housing board and also gambling board and to this effect relevant legislation be amended to ensure that only the Cabinet and not boards have the power to determine the policies.

	5.	That the policy in respect of allowing site and route operators in terms of KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Act also to promote SMME with due regard to the provisions of anti-monopoly and unfair trade practice legislations and policies.

	And further calls upon the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism to prepare for tabling and consideration by this Legislature a Bill called: The Promotion of SMME Bill, for consideration by the hon House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I have seen all the people who have indicated a desire to speak.  Could you just give me a chance to deal with the order in which I saw you rising from your seats.  I will deal with that.  Can I have a point of order.  Mr Nel?

MR W U NEL:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.  Is the hon member Mr Rajbansi not disqualified from membership of this House if he is unable to count to 250?  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  I do not want to comment on that, Mr Speaker, because if I do comment this hon member will be subjected to the worst humiliation in his entire history.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Bhamjee, you indicated your desire to speak before the other members.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting I shall move:

	The Dadoo-Naicker-Xuma pact of 1947:

	Observing the 50th Anniversary of the Dadoo-Naicker-Xuma Pact of March 1947, this Parliament of KwaZulu-Natal reaffirms the importance of peace and harmony in South Africa.  The Doctors' Pact was an important declaration for the working together of all democrats in South Africa, to strive for a non-racial future which we have now achieved.  This House places on record and welcomes this historic declaration.

Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Dlamini.

MR F DLAMINI:  Mr Speaker, I wish to give notice that I shall move the following motion at the next sitting:




	This House Noting:

	1.	The growing initiatives of the people in various communities such as Bergville, Ladysmith, Estcourt, Winterton and Msinga Districts and other areas such as Umgababa in the Umbumbulu District and KwaThathani Project for the mentally retarded children in the Ixopo District that have gone a long way to create structures and facilities to cater for the physically, mentally and sensory incapacitated adults and children of our Province.

	2.	That these initiatives are in line with the RDP principles.

	3.	That encouragement and support of such initiatives will be a calculated effort towards empowerment of the disabled.

	Further Noting: 

	4.	That these Community Based Rehabilitation Projects are the only way to go to level out an ever increasing expense budget to social welfare.

		Believing that disabled people do not want to receive alms but prefer to be incorporated into the mainstream of society.

	Therefore resolves that: 

	The Social Welfare and Population Development channels all its discretionary RDP funds towards these community efforts.

Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Cele.

MR B H CELE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice to this hon House that I will move the following on the next sitting day:

	1.	Noting the alarmingly high rate of violent crimes against women and children and that in South Africa:

	 	-	one woman is raped every 83 seconds,

		-	approximately one woman in every five households suffers assault and abuse, often at the hands of family members,

		-	one out of every four girls and one out of every eight boys is sexually molested, often by family members, and 

		-	in 1996 there were 24 482 incidents of violence against children.

	2.	THEREFORE RESOLVES TO 
	
		2.1	Play an active part in fighting and eradicating violence against women and children, and to urge and encourage its committees and individual members to lead the campaign in this Province against such violence.

		2.2	Support and promote the work of the Commission for Gender Equality established in terms of Section 181(1)(d) of the Constitution.

I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Cele.  I had thought that the Minister of Health has indicated a desire to speak.

DR Z L MKHIZE:  (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wish to give notice that I will move on the next sitting day as follows:

	That this House noting:

	(a)	the World health assembly has declared Tuberculosis as a Global Emergency and 24 March 1997 has been declared international TB Awareness Day;

	(b)	in 1997, an estimated three million people will die of Tuberculosis worldwide;

	(c)	the National Minister Dr Zuma has declared Tuberculosis a national epidemic;

	(d)	the figures of notified Tuberculosis in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal have continued to rise over the years aggravated by the combination of Tuberculosis and HIV/Aids which has more devastating effect than each disease alone;

	(e)	although about 10 000 notifications were received in 1996, it is estimated that the Province of KwaZulu-Natal has 30 000 people who are infected every year from tuberculosis;

	(f)	an intensive programme called Directly Observed Therapy (DOT) is being embarked upon in the Province and nationally with the aim of reducing the infection by 95% by the year 2 000.

	This House therefore resolves:

	(a)	to support TB awareness programmes starting on 24 March 1997;

	(b)	to commit the members of this House to support the programme of DOT and mobilise our communities to join the fight against this deadly disease.

Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Mr I C Meer.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, at the next sitting day of this Provincial Parliament I will move the following motion:

	"Shocked and horrified at the many wrongs committed during the apartheid regime".


	"And further in identifying the real top culprits of the era when "foul was fair and fair was foul" as in the days of Macbeth and the days of our recent past".

	"This House in order to prevent any future recurrence of such evils must end the pointing of accusing fingers at mavericks or even computers.  In the interest of Truth and Reconciliation and the award of undeserving amnesty the present "buk buk" in high places must be stopped.  

	And this House must declare that "all the perfumes from Arabia" which Pretoria can purchase will not cleanse the hands guilty and foul will remain foul".

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  In the absence of any further motions we are now going to go into the debate on the Adjustments Estimate Bill 1997, item 8 on the Order Paper.  However, before we do that, there are just two things I have been directed to give to this House for attention.

The first one, there has been an invitation to attend a farewell function for the ex-Premier at the Garden Court Holiday Inn.  Members have not responded.  It is assumed that some of the members may not have received that invitation, and I am therefore directed to inform you in time for you to make your decisions, 7 o'clock at the Holiday Inn.

The second issue is in the absence of the Speaker I have to announce that the Speaker has now introduced this in an attempt to deal with the manner in which people proceed beyond their allocated times of speaking.  It will therefore be very necessary that you know that when you speak you are timed.  As from now this is going to be put into practice as we start this debate.

8.  ADJUSTMENTS ESTIMATE BILL, 1997.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Item 8 on the Order Paper, the first one to speak on this item is Mr Makhaye for ten minutes.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Mr Speaker, it gives me pleasure to move the adoption of the KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Estimate Bill 1997.  To a large extent the Bill contains budgetary revisions arising out of the improvements of conditions of service.

However, it should be noted that windfall amounts of some R200m, R100m and R100m were also found and allocated to education, health and welfare respectively.  These monies accrue out of savings from the amalgamation process and it should be noted that such amounts are unlikely to be found in future years.

On 28 February 1997, the Portfolio Committee held a hearing with the four departments most affected by the Bill.  These are the Health Department, Welfare and Pension Department, Education and Culture Department and Public Works.

The Committee is most encouraged with the progress made in trying to keep expenditure on track and within the budget, and particularly these four departments, all of whom committed themselves to stay within the allocated budget lines.  There is certainly a growing awareness in departments of the importance of accountability to the taxpayers specifically, and citizens of South Africa in general.

At the same time, it should be noted that we are in the midst of a period in which there is a massive need for Government to deliver on reconstruction and development, but within stringent physical constraints.

The Adjustment Estimate Bill, provides us with an important opportunity to reflect on the year almost past, and ensure that in the budget hearings to follow, we improve on our ability to deliver efficiently and equitably.

Mr Speaker, with these few words on behalf of the Committee, I move that we adopt this Bill.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Makhaye.  Mr Aulsebrook, you also have ten minutes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Adjustments Estimate Bill which is before us is not merely a consequential formality but an essential component of our budgetary process.

While improvements of conditions of service make up a large portion of this Bill, and over which we have very little say or influence, it is the balance of this Bill which is of extreme importance to us.  It in fact fine-tunes the 96/97 budget and balances the overruns in spending with the under-expenditure between departments.

In performing this balance act a number of issues are highlighted, certainly regarding our 96/97 budget.  Firstly, shortcomings such as over and under-budgeting.  These need to be addressed in the 97/98 budget which was presented to us today by the Premier as the Minister of Finance.  More importantly it highlights those departments which overspend and who have failed to adhere to fiscal discipline.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I wish to bring to your attention that the hon member is violating Rule 69 in that no one is allowed to read a speech.  [LAUGHTER]

AN HON MEMBER:  It is a personal vendetta that this chap has got.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I just remind the hon member that as far as possible refrain from reading speeches.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Right.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  

HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I want to bring to your attention that the hon member should withdraw the remark that the hon member is reading a speech prepared by Sun International.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, I would like to request the member to proceed.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  You are right, I will do.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am sure the Speaker will be considerate as far as that is concerned.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Not considerate, this clock is considerate.  Once you start I switch it on.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Certainly in our 96/97 budget we have come across at least three or four departments which overspent in their budgets, which posed a major problem for the Budget Council.  I know that the Chairman of the Finance Committee referred to a windfall of 400 million to assist in balancing the budget's estimates.  Quite honestly we will not have a windfall of that nature in the following year.  So when we are dealing with the 97/98 budget, Portfolio Committees will have a major responsibility to ensure that we have correct disciplined budgeting.  Furthermore, Portfolio Committees have an even greater role to play in monitoring the expenditure of departments.

Now certainly within the next two weeks our budgetary process will begin, and here the Finance Portfolio Committee will be looking to the other Portfolio Committees accompanying the departments to those hearings.  This year we will certainly be looking a lot deeper at budgets, being conscious of the fact that budgets this year are supposedly zero-based.  We now need to ensure that those budgets can be interpreted to delivery.

When it comes to departments such as Education we will need to know how many schools, how many classrooms will be built in the year.  When it comes to Health Services we will need to know how many clinics, how many hospitals and so on.  We will need to know physically what is going to be delivered.  It is one way in which we will be able to monitor delivery.  Come the end of the year we want to see what has been delivered.  We can measure the performance of those departments.

Well, you know, budget cuts are a very sore point in this budget. Quite honestly we need to now look at those budgets that have been cut or those that have certainly overspent in the last year and look at ways in which they can more efficiently spend their budgets.  That is really the secret.

As the Minister has just pointed out now, the unfair thing that shows up in budget estimates, is those that are certainly disciplined in their spending are in fact penalised in that their underspending is then passed on to those overspending in balancing the budgets.  Unfortunately, that is the only manner in which we have been able to handle it this year, but certainly next year we will look at it in a very different light.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to support the Adjustments Estimate Bill.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Aulsebrook.  I will give the hon Mr Meer a chance.  Can I just go through this exercise.  Because we are experiencing the use of this clock-timer for the first time and immediately we have gone into an experience of some disruption, maybe it is important that I explain how it functions.

When I sensed that Mr Rajbansi had a problem and was just about to cause me some serious problems, which was going to delay the hon member, I stopped this clock.  It was at two minutes then.  I subsequently, when the member started speaking, restarted the clock.  It indicates that the member has spoken for six minutes and a second which means that that is how it should be functioning and that is how we are going to endeavour to ensure that it functions.  In other words, there will no longer be any need for us to be considerate.  It will be this clock.  That is what I was trying to convey to Mr Aulsebrook.  For all members to know please.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, may I propose that the clock be displayed so that members can see.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We will investigate that, Mr Rajbansi.  I have pleasure in now calling upon Mr I C Meer for five minutes.

MR I C MEER:  And I have pleasure in responding, sir, without any notes and nothing up my sleeve and no draughtsman from either this country or outside South Africa.  [LAUGHTER]

All that stopped when I said that all the religious groups should have come and told us that gambling was a sin, and a sin to be condemned.  All pressures then duly stopped against that particular person in question.

I want to say, that on this particular measure now under discussion, there is room for transparency and I want the lamp of transparency to be focused on the Finance Committee.

In that Finance Committee we have had a wonderful working together.  I think if one person from that Committee merely stood up and said that we have reached unanimity in what we have done and we have presented to this House that would be sufficient.

What I want to stress is this, two tests.  Efficiency and frugality to which we are committed.  Not to any particular political party and as a result we have been able to focus attention on each member of the Executive Committee who constitute our Cabinet.  Who is the Finance Committee?  The Finance Committee is the watchdog of the Legislature ascertaining whether the executive has carried out its responsibility in respect of the budget of the previous year and then subsequently whatever adjustments have to be made.

On the whole, we find an improvement from previous years, but we are not sufficiently satisfied.  We want to reach a much higher position so that, as has been mentioned by the last speaker, we can come back and report that we had each Minister coming to us. There are some Ministers, and I want to compliment all of them, but people like the Minister who is present directly opposite me, I want to say that we would like Peter Miller to be particularly congratulated in presenting to us always a detailed statement of the activities of his own Department.  He deserves that praise.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR I C MEER:  Similarly there are other members of the Cabinet who also deserve to be praised.  I do not like to speak behind people's backs, I like to praise them in their presence, but our Minister Zweli Mkhize is another person who requires to be given that particular credit.

So, sir, without taking very much more of the time, we say in our Committee we have spent a lot of time, and in fact on the second matter which is going to be discussed, we have spent a lot of time, even this morning and previous days and we want to assure the public of this Province that it is wrong to assume that to run a democracy is more costly than to run the evils of apartheid.  Yes indeed, fair is foul and foul is fair.  We have passed that stage.  We want now, fair is fair and foul is foul and this Committee will condemn everything which is foul and praise everything which is fair.

In that breath I second the measure before the House.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  I now call upon Mr Edwards.  You have got eight minutes, sir.

MR B V EDWARDS:  How many minutes, Mr Speaker, sorry?

AN HON MEMBER:  Eight.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Eight.  According to my speaker's list you have got eight.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Mr Speaker, when I hear the hon Mr Meer speak and all the ills and so on, he reminds me of Kubla Khan.  I must say that:  
 
	In Xanadu the Kubla Khan,
	A stately pleasures dome decree
	Where else the sacred river ran
	Through caverns measureless to man
	Down to a sunless sea. 

You remember that.

AN HON MEMBER:  NOT ON RECORD

MR B V EDWARDS:  No, no, that is a different one.  I must say when I look at the estimates here and the controls I feel I am sometimes at a sunless sea, there are so many problems.

In March last year in debating the Adjustments Estimates for 95/96, members were at pains to point out the particular aspects for the approval of the additional funds expended in excess of the budget.  The first I think was highlighted with an anticipated additional expenditure amounting to R1,2 billion or 8% of the budget and basically it was said this must never happen again.

Secondly, it was accepted while the goals of utilising available resources effectively and exercising good financial discipline had hardly been achieved.  There had been insufficient involvement by the Portfolio Committees with departments in preparation of budgets and in monitoring expenditure.

Perhaps we are there again.  In the debate today on the Adjustment Estimates comes, I believe, against the backdrop of the budget tabled by the Premier as Finance Minister for the year 97/98, and what has been termed by the Premier himself as being a tough budget.

Without going into any detail, it is more than a tough budget.  Indeed it is one which is largely devoid of impetus for economic growth and sadly lacking in providing vital infrastructure, particularly roads and school buildings with an estimated shortage of some 13 000 to 15 000 classrooms in our Province and a cut of R550 million to R22 million for capital works and education.  We had hoped we would spend that money in providing classrooms last year and it has not been done.  The over-expenditure came in other avenues.

We as members are finally responsible for the fiscal discipline of this Province, not just the Minister.  We as members are.  We cannot lightly dismiss our responsibility after approving the additional expenditure in terms of this year's Adjustment Estimates.  We must look at the future.

The total additional over-expenditure this year amounts to R2,4 billion.  It is double what it was last year, or 15,8% of the originally voted amount of 15,3 billion.  Re-expenditure for this fiscal year that passed to 17,7 billion.

After the concerns expressed last year it appears there was even less involvement and consultation between the Ministry of Finance and the Portfolio Committees and even less financial discipline by certain departments.  Certain departments, I think have really played the game.  They have provided the Finance Committee and Portfolio Committees with updated schedules of spending and showing they are on budget, but others have not and largely their financial discipline has not been good.

It is pleasing to learn that it is planned that by August, the first four months of this year, financial results or financial spending will be tabled for the Finance Committee to look at the financial performance, for it to be monitored and action to be taken and I hope that occurs.  We cannot go through another two years like this.

While a substantial portion of additional expenditure was due to payment in respect of improvements of conditions of service, and we understand that and we have heard a motion here today, saying really perhaps the public servants are running riot in pushing salaries up and up and up until we just cannot afford it and then we are going to have to look at cutting staffing.

But R1,6 billion was paid from the National Exchequer towards improvement of conditions of service.  It is disturbing that the numbers of staff employed by provinces, that includes our Province, are unacceptably high and they are still growing, when they resolved last year to cut staff growth to try and rationalise and we do not know whether that is happening.  We still do not have the figures from various departments as to what their actual staff is on a head count compared to the computer system.  Only one particular Department, and that happens to be the Department of Local Government, has provided us with figures and some are disturbing when we see that 442 of their staff either do not exist or should not be there.

Additional over-expenditure of 820 million was funded from savings from the previous financial year, and as the hon Mr Aulsebrook has said, these roll-overs are going to stop.  So we will not be able to depend on this sort of roll-over from previous years.

Our further concern is the fact that as far as the national budget is concerned, KwaZulu-Natal has to deal with widespread rural poverty and only receives some 19% of the funds available to provinces from a total of R75 billion.  This, taking into account the population of our Province which is estimated, and the Premier today has confirmed that figure of some 25% of our total population, shows we are under-funded by some R2 billion or 17% of our needs.

Provinces which are purely over-funded, looking at the figures in terms of population, perhaps not in needs because some also have enormous backlogs but we all have those backlogs and needs, are the Eastern Cape which is getting 17,8% of the provincial allocation.  Gauteng gets 15% of the provincial allocation.

The latest national budget has not addressed the backlog of needs in KwaZulu-Natal.  Indeed we have gone backwards in relation to the other provinces.  I believe the Cabinet should be urged to closely examine the total allocation to each of the provinces and make representations to the National Minister of Finance, to the National Cabinet to at least make a start in achieving equity or parity between provinces.  This is where we are suffering.

Then of course if Finance Ministers change on an annual basis it is going to be very difficult to build up a real trust and build up the progress that we so desperately need.

Mr Speaker, with those reservations I support the Bill before us.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Edwards.  We now are going to have Mr Hamilton who will address the House for five minutes.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Minister Premier on his budget and to particularly support his innovative proposals for maximising the funds that we do have available, inadequate though they are.

The prime goal of our Provincial Government must be the creation of jobs.  Having said that, South Africa has been keeping a secret for many years.  Probably the best kept secret ever.  That secret is simply the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and we are about to be discovered.

Meanwhile we must prepare for the tremendous surge of economic development which is coming and indeed has already started.  To prepare and be ready we must invest in infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure such as roads, tourism related infrastructure such as the new King Shaka International Airport, our ports of Durban and Richards Bay so as to give the tourism industry all the infrastructure it needs to develop its full potential, so as to maximise job creation and empowerment potential.

I also speak for the introduction of a low cost job creation policy in the fields of secondary road construction, earthwall dam construction and reafforestation programmes.  In many projects of this type labour intensive methods can be substituted for mechanical methods, particularly in the rural areas.

With regard to our infrastructure where we find that we are in an area that is not our own competence, I submit that we have every right to involve ourselves in them from a point of view of influence and endeavouring to bring about developments of an important nature.  If we look after our infrastructure this Province will succeed.  We should never forget that it costs more to send a shipping container from Durban to Gauteng than to send the same container to Singapore.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There is a point of order.  Can the hon member resume his seat.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  While I like the hon Mr Hamilton very much, I do not believe he is talking to the Bill before us.  He is dealing with other matters altogether and I believe he should be talking at least to the adjustments estimates before us.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the member may not be aware that a debate on a money Bill such as this, is an open debate on any political and any other measure.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you for highlighting that, Mr Burrows.  Will the hon member then proceed.  You, according to this, have exhausted two minutes.

MR A J HAMILTON:  As I was saying and I thank Mr Edwards for his kind intention to instruct me, as I was saying even in areas that are not our competence, I do not believe that that precludes us as a responsible Government in this Province to influence events so that these things do come to pass.

The port of Durban for example employs 30 000 people and that I submit is very definitely the business of our Province.  The port of Richards Bay, magnificent ship repairing dry dock capable of taking vessels of 350 000 tons.  We must ensure that we do everything in our power to make sure that those two competitive advantages, probably the most important advantages any province could have, are maximised and it is our business.

I am not unaware of the fact that this is an immensely tight budget but what I speak for is putting our money where we are going to create jobs.  Educated people with no jobs like they have in Zimbabwe does not help anyone.  So I would like to put my money on the job creation, on a strong job creation slant towards the way we spend our money and the way we look to the future of our Province.

Thank you, sir, and I support the Minister's budget and congratulate him.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon Mr Nel.  You have four minutes, sir.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, budget overruns are always a serious matter and we must never forget that.  Consequently it is necessary to subject the requests such as an adjustment estimate to the most rigorous and detailed scrutiny.  We are in this instance satisfied that these expenses are either unavoidable, such as the improvement of conditions of service necessary in the case of education and health etcetera.

This does give us the opportunity to reflect again on what the hon member Mr Meer referred to as the two elements.  The first being frugality and the other one efficiency.

Now the frugality requires us to live within our means but the efficiency means that we must actually try and buy more for less, to deliver good quality work, to secure a contract or compact rather from all servants of the Province, starting right from the top through this House, to the very lowest rungs on the ladder so that we each give our pound of flesh and each take responsibility for delivering to the population of our Province.

Now we have gone one step of the way, we are almost through with the elimination of ghosts, or we should hope so, because at the end of this month the reports are due in.  Then we get to the next step, which is investigating the bodies that are actually there to find out which of them are alive or at the very least active.  We need to get rid of clock-watchers and people who are motionless, and that is our next challenge.  We must create a feeling of pride in the Province amongst all the servants of this Province, then we will achieve our goals and be able to live within our means.

Damaging as some of the press reports have been and we have had reports of indiscipline, fraud and all sorts of nasty things that have occurred in the administration, I am immensely encouraged that these are in fact the exception and not the rule and that we need to root them out in order to protect those servants who do their jobs diligently.

What encourages me even more, is the golden thread through the three major speeches which have been delivered by the hon Minister of Finance and now our Premier, and the first goes back to the Adjustments Estimates when that was presented.  He talked about benchmarking, being a form of efficiency measurement, which can be used and a technique which can be used to be compared with the best available examples in the rest of the world.  He then carried it through to his acceptance speech this morning, the printed version, some of it which was left out in the one rendered.  Where he said that we in the provinces have now had long enough to find our feet and to set our own standards and it is in terms of these standards that we must judge ourselves and be judged.  From now on we must get our act together and we will.  Immensely encouraging.

Then what I found, one of the most exciting budget speeches I have listened to, today, towards the end we had some innovative suggestions around models for improvement of delivery to the people of this Province, including a design-build/rehabilitate-operate scheme suggestion and another on management contracts for facilities management, both of which I think can immensely benefit us and enable us to continue living within our means at the same time.

Then the last suggestion that I also found very interesting and exciting, was that of an administrative review mechanism, to really check that in the Province we are achieving the goals that we set ourselves to achieve.

Sir, with those words I would gladly support this Adjustments Estimate and also congratulate the Minister on the initiatives that he is embarking upon.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I think I want to add to the words of congratulations to our hon Premier, in his capacity as Minister of Finance, with taking certain bold decisions immediately when he assumed office.

Of course, we want to suggest to the Premier that this Province has to take certain bold decisions.  The decisions must be in respect of efficiency and economy.  The decision in respect of the size of our civil service as it is internationally accepted, that once you go using beyond 84% of your budget for personnel expenditure there can be no job creation nor, shall I say provision of extra infrastructure.  I think across party political lines we all must make representations to the Central Government, especially the National Treasury that we are still being regarded as the last outpost or the Cinderella Province as we are not getting our allocations on the basis of equity.

I want to make an appeal to the hon Premier.  This is an era of consultants, where the consultants regard every Provincial Government, even the National Government as a milking cow.  Now let me substantiate this.

How could you have for example a very able qualified official working full-time, doing a job for 5 000 and you go to another department, the equivalent official, the new incumbent says, "I am prepared to sit in an office full-time doing the equivalent job at R15 000,00 per month".  I am not going to mention the Department, I am not going to mention the Ministry, I will write a personal letter to the relevant Minister concerned.  There must be uniformity in respect of the employment of staff.  If a person is not prepared to work for you full-time tell them good-bye, there are many who are looking for jobs.

To the hon, shall I say, expectant Minister of Tourism Mr Hamilton, I want to say let us take India as an example which is a tourist haven, they have only two million tourists going there.  Next door Singapore which is smaller than the city of Durban, there are six million.  If you do not have economic growth, if you do not build a massive business centre, tourists will not come to this Province.  So let us have the upward mobility of our economy, create jobs, change our rural area's activities from subsistence to semi-commercial.  Every decision we are going to take and before we take them must be sound financial decisions and it must create a job.

I commend the hon Premier for the excellent work he is doing.  We support this Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I now call upon the hon Mr Mkhwanazi.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I also want to congratulate our Minister of Finance and Premier on his explanations which he gave this morning on the budget.

I am only going to concentrate on one thing.  Prior to 1994 everybody in the world said South Africa was very rich and I used to tell them wherever I went that the richness of a country is relative.  At the time the economy of the country was only concentrating on taking care of five million out of over 30 million people of this country.  Therefore those who sat in comfortable places were supposed to be rich and they were in the minority, the majority of the people were poor.

Now it is after 1994.  Even now efforts are being made to divide the loaf of bread or the cake as you may call it.  We should appreciate and understand the fact that unless the cake has grown or the loaf of bread has grown, to cut the slices for all the people in an equitable manner, definitely you will have smaller slices.  I think what you need to do is to emphasise that we must first do everything possible, to increase the size of the cake.

At the same time I want to say it without any fear or favour, let us increase the slice and in fact give bread to those people who did not have bread.  Therefore perhaps to reduce or maintain the slice of those who had the slice.


TRANSLATION:  I wish that it be properly understood, that there were people who were well to do, who have buttered bread every morning.  There are people who did not even have a single unbuttered slice of bread.  They eat military bread.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.


TRANSLATION:  Therefore Sir, hon Minister, it would be preferable if your concentration was directed at those who were without food.  Just like my case as I do not have the time.  I am now sitting down because my slice is thin.  Just try and look at the matter from that perspective.  Thank you.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:,  [Thank you very much sir],  Mrs Downs, three minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I am definitely not a financial expert, that is definitely not my area of expertise.  Having said that, I do know that if you spend money, that you have not got, ultimately you are going to run into trouble.  I think a budget overrun is always a serious matter.

Some of the things that I have noticed is that, for example, we must not look to the civil service to be the job creator.  A very wise man once said to me that a bureaucrat produces nothing, adds nothing to the gross domestic product and just shuffles paper around and creates more paper to keep himself employed.

Whilst I do not entirely agree with that, I have noticed that we have some serious problems in our Province.  In one of the Portfolio Committees I was sitting in for example, there was an issue where something could not be done because there were not enough expert people.  The people that were employed in the posts were not qualified to handle those posts, yet more people could not be employed because we actually have an over-extended bureaucracy in the Province.

So it is about putting the right person in for the right job.  It is about the people being efficient and it is about not creating huge numbers of jobs, with no work to actually be done.

However, having said that in the form of criticism, I want to just say that this morning I was very pleased to listen to our new Premier in his capacity as Minister of Finance, when he spoke about basically having management by objectives, zero-based budgeting, practising discipline and this has been a recurrent theme through the speeches that I have heard him make.

So if I can say to you, Mr Premier, through the Speaker, that I hope you make good on what you have said in your speeches.  With that we support the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  Can we then have Dr Sutcliffe for eight minutes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, and like my colleagues this morning, if I could congratulate the Premier on his appointment and being the most overworked MEC in Cabinet, at the moment it seems with almost half the portfolios.  I might add too as a minor item, just for the record, that you might want to just ensure before the Works Department start complaining, in your printed copy of your speech I think you have a slight error in the number there.  It reads R549,719 million and I think it should be R594,719.  But you had better issue that quickly otherwise there are going to be some complaints from Works.

In a sense, in looking at the Adjustments Estimate, I want to argue that we need a Bart campaign.  Those of you who watch television know about Bart Simpson who is this young dude who tends to have a kind of an attitude, let us say.  In a sense, in looking at this campaign, I would say that we need to get our attitude right.

B stands for the fact that we need to ensure that there is belt tightening.  Last year we passed a budget, supposedly of 15 billion, it was up to 17 billion or whatever.  We can add in the numbers in a sense there.

We are only able to do that, we are only able to balance our books, not through belt tightening but actually because we were able to find a little bit of money here, there and everywhere.  That money quite frankly will not exist this coming year.  So unless there is a serious campaign around belt tightening, which we all should be actively involved in we are going to be in trouble.

The A in the Bart campaign stands for the fact that when we deal with this estimate we are dealing with adjustments, we are not dealing with overruns.  I heard another hon colleague earlier on referring to it as overruns.  We should not treat this as overruns simply because we are actually talking about dealing with the budget and adjustments here and there and mainly for conditions of service and things that happened during the year.

Unfortunately, there is this mentality that well, do not worry, if the budget actually was set at the beginning of the year we can overrun this budget and at the end of the year we will pull it all together.  We have to change that mentality.  So the A in the Bart campaign is to get a culture that adjustments are simply adjustments, they are not excuses for poor management, mismanagement and the like.

The R in the campaign is responsibility.  Unless we become more responsible in the way we operate, that we are sitting together collectively and saying how can we put our minds together to make this governmental system work, we are going to be in trouble.  In a sense it is a problem.  Whenever we talk about money Bills, as you can see today looking at the benches around here, everyone scatters to go and finish telephone calls and the like because after all cheques arrive each month, no one seems to worry that the issue of finance is in fact critical.  I think that the issue of responsibility then is key.

The last, the T in Bart's campaign is what will happen if we do not get our act together.  That is basically we have a train smash and we are going to have a train smash unless we get Bart's campaign together.

We have pleasure in supporting this Adjustments Estimate.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Dr Sutcliffe.  Now I call upon the Minister.  In this case the Minister of Finance to respond to this debate.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am very encouraged by the comments in this debate regarding the Adjustment Estimates.  I would thank Dr Sutcliffe for defining precisely what we mean in this presentation.

We are of course worried that there is even a need for Adjustment Estimates because essentially it should consist of a report that we in Cabinet, in the Finance Ministry and Finance Portfolio Committee have monitored expenditure throughout the year and are satisfied that the money has been spent properly, that the targets set have been reached and so on.

It serves of course also to engage our colleagues in looking at the performance of departments of Government, throughout the year, so that we can find remedies for the following budget year and lay fresh guidelines for departments to follow.  The most important guideline for all of us is adhering to fiscal discipline.

You know, I get worried that one day if we did a survey, probably say just for interest sake in the Department of Education, and ask the inspectors at the second level, the inspectors at the regional level and at provincial level how much money they spend on chalk per year, I do not think we will get an answer.  To me that is the type of discipline that is lacking.

Equally so, if we went to any department and said: How many trips did you make this year, trips that involve your personnel sleeping in hotels, claiming S&T for all sorts of things, petrol and mileage on the Government cars, I do not think you would get a precise answer.  That is what we want to work towards, that we manage our task in a very businesslike manner, that the lines of reporting are very straight and that there is a sanction at the end of the day for failure to comply.

You know the public service is a very nice haven for malefactors because there is very little sanction at the end of the day.  We need to change that culture, I quite agree, and again it will depend very much to a large extent on the co-operation and support in this House.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That has now taken care of our debate on the Adjustments Estimate Bill.  It has now come to a point where I have to put the question.

ADJUSTMENTS ESTIMATE BILL, 1997 - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Bill has been unanimously passed.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, for the record it must be stated that the strongest "Ayes" always come from this side.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I now wish to go on to item 9 on the Order Paper and that is the Tender Board Bill.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, point of order.  I think procedurally the Secretary should read into the record the short title.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you.  Mr Secretary.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Adjustments Appropriation Bill 1997.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I would wish to then say that in terms of the reading by the Secretary that Bill has now been read.  Thank you.  The Bill has been passed unanimously.

9.  KWAZULU-NATAL TENDER BOARD AMENDMENT BILL, 1997.

I wish to call upon the Minister to introduce the Bill.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It is the conviction of the Cabinet of the Province that economic growth is possible through effective involvement of small, medium and micro enterprises, the SMMEs.  In any growing economy focus is made on SMMEs and this has been the trend throughout all the newly industrialising nations and the emerging markets, particularly those of Asia Pacific and South-East Asia.

This focus has taken the form of every day observation of the way that informal sector traders pend their wares wherever they can, displaying entrepreneurial talent and drive.  International experience shows us that small businesses tend to be large employers, they are more competitive and therefore transmit a dynamic excitement into the rest of the economy.  It is in this context that Cabinet resolved to investigate the necessity to change the procurement policies and processes.

The investigation commissioned, with the approval of Cabinet, has now been completed.  This investigation has come up with a set of proposals for a policy and draft Bill.  Central to what was found by the investigation was the following.

The present set of institutional arrangements servicing the procurement process were defined, devised and implemented during an era of political, social and economic discrimination, fraternal deals and contracts as well as artificial competition.

Within this context the role and functioning of the various Tender Boards reflected a preoccupation with centralised political and administrative control over how and to whom tenders were allocated.  Appropriate changes in institutional arrangements have not been fundamentally executed.

What this means is that an effective barrier to the entrance of small, medium and micro enterprises had been maintained up to this stage and all those who are busy doing the economic cause and I commend my colleagues who have this courage that know what the characteristics of perfect competition are.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Can you tell me where we can register?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  The investigation also found that despite departmental responsibility for most of the work involved in the procurement process, the development and implementation of any given project, the Tender Board occupies controlling middle ground within the procurement cycle.

The ultimate decision making power of the Board enables it to effectively control departmental procurement and thereby controlling strategic development plans of any department, even though the responsibility for successful implementation remains that of the Department.

The current Tender Board Act defines the Tender Board very broadly as responsible for all procurement for the Province.  When the mandate is so broad precise roles and responsibilities are confused.

The recommendations that led to the drafting of the Tender Board Amendment Act, were based on the legal opinion expressed by a team of four advocates.  These legal experts studied the Constitution of South Africa and tested the Tender Board Act against its provisions.

In presenting this opinion, the advocates dealt with a number of areas.  Where the current legislation was found to be flawed was with regard to access to information, section 32.  Just administration, section 33.  The need for effective transparent and accountable Government, section 41(1)(c).  The right to equality, section 9.

I want to deal with the right to equality which is the cornerstone of democracy and is set out as follows.  Of course, by equality really we do not mean that the volume of water in this glass is equal to the volume of water in a similar glass.  We do not mean that type of equality, we mean equality of opportunity, the justness, the fairness of the process.  Equity in fact.

Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.  Nevertheless, in order to promote achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, categories of persons disadvantaged by unfair discrimination, may be taken.

The State may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

I bring this to the fore in order to argue that the implementation of empowerment and affirmative action is not reversed discrimination.  This must be accepted and tolerated as a necessary limitation on the right to equality.  It is clear from the new Constitution that the emphasis is not on equality but on substantive equality.  Therefore without any meaningful effort to bring about affirmative action and the empowerment programmes there can be no real substantive equality.

The Bill before the House aims at achieving the vision of this Government as outlined in the good governance programme.  Our Province of KwaZulu-Natal, I quote:

	Will be characterised by a peaceful, secure, prosperous, healthy, educated democratic society and as being attractive and competitive both in local and global terms.

We believe that the Tender Board must help us achieve this vision.  The Bill presented before this House seeks to amend the existing Tender Board Act and bring about the desired change.  We need to establish a procurement system which will ensure that Government contributes to the development of a strong, dynamic and vibrant economy that is far more representative of the population.  It is therefore fitting that the Bill has the following objectives:

-	To establish a representative and inclusive Tender Board.
-	To create conditions which are conducive to empowerment of small, medium and micro enterprises.
-	To promote the achievement of equality by measures designed to protect or advance persons or categories of persons disadvantaged by past unfair discrimination.
-	To create conditions which are conducive to the empowerment of heads of departments in the procurement process.
-	To create a procurement system which is fair, equitable, transparent, competitive and cost effective.
-	To create uniformity and simplicity in the procurement process.
-	To provide for an advisory service to promote access to and knowledge of the procurement process.
-	Finally, to provide for an independent and impartial appeal structure.

I can report that the Bill represents views and aspirations of a broad section of our population.  Prior to its formulation a variety of stakeholders were consulted.  A further consultation took place on the report on which this Bill is based.  The Izandla Ziyagezana 1997 was a very successful views testing mechanism.  We are confident that the letter and the spirit of the Bill represents those wishes expressed by some 600 delegates to that conference.

Importantly, I think that the Bill that is before this House locates the rule of Government and governance.  I think that all of us will agree that our role as a Legislature and the Executive is to map out a clear path to be followed by the administration and any other institution, be it a body of Government people, or a body of people who are contracting for Government work, or an entity of Government in the discharge of its various functions.

It is my belief that the Tender Board, like any creation of Government, must implement the policies of the Government of the day.

It is in this context that it is very important for legislation to clearly identify who formulates policy and who does the implementation.  I must thank the subcommittee of the Finance Committee, for really toiling hard to get revision of the original draft.  They did it within a matter of 24 hours which is highly commendable.

Mr Speaker, I table at this stage the Tender Board Amendment Bill for consideration by this hon House.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now call upon the Chairperson of the Finance Committee, Mr Makhaye, for ten minutes.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Mr Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I move on behalf of the Portfolio Committee on Finance the adoption of the KwaZulu-Natal Tender Board Bill 1997, as amended.

At the outset I would like to indicate that this Bill is not a revision of one of the first Acts this Legislature passed in 1994, which Act established the KwaZulu-Natal Tender Board.  Instead it is a fundamentally new Act, which funds itself on principles of equity, efficiency, redressing past social inequalities, inequities, cost effectiveness, job creation and transparency.

In many ways the 1994 Act simply created a mechanism for establishing a single Tender Board for the Province.  It certainly did not contain within it anything of the philosophy contained within body interim and now final Constitutions.

When that Act was passed in 1994 many members of this House expressed their dissatisfaction and indicated that major revisions would be required.  The new MEC for Finance, Dr Ben Ngubane, wasted no time in late 1996, in initiating a process to create a new Tender Board Act, which would be consistent with the aims and the objectives of the Constitution.  This he has done and we must thank him and his Department for moving with speed on this issue.

Unfortunately, in order to ensure that this Bill comes into effect in the early part of the 1997/1998 financial year, we have had to sacrifice something and that is the 21 day period which would normally be allowed for public comment, following which would be public hearings.  The Speaker has already waived a 21 day Rule and I would like to formally propose that we also waive Rules 124 and 125, in terms of the manner in which the amended Bill is presented to the House this afternoon.

We firmly believe that the problem with shortening the time for public comment are massively outweighed by the need to create a wholly new Tender Board and process of procurement.  However, we would respectfully request that the Minister today indicates in no uncertain terms, that important stakeholders and the public at large be provided with a further opportunity to suggest further amendments within six months of the Tender Board Act being promulgated.

This could be linked to the process in which the procurement policy would be developed and would allow us to ensure that the Act is finely tuned to match the operational environment.

Notwithstanding these comments, the Portfolio Committee and the subcommittee on the Tender Board have certainly burnt the midnight oil to ensure that the Amendment Bill, before this House, today, represents a quality document which will change forever the procurement process in this Province.

I would also want to thank Mr Xolani Cele and Miss Jili who acted as secretaries to this Portfolio Committee.  Mr Speaker, it gives me pleasure on behalf of the Portfolio Committee to move this Amendment Bill for adoption.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Makhaye.  The next to address the House, Mr Aulsebrook.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  This Tender Board Bill which is before us today is long overdue and coupled with the fact that we have been in the new South Africa for nearly three years, begs the question why so long?  Members of this House on numerous occasions have in speeches attacked the tender process as defined in the 1994 Act.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Why do you not mention the member who always did it?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Go and look at the tapes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  The Minister of Finance has, since taking office, moved swiftly to draw up this Bill that addresses the needs of this Province and its people and for that we salute the Minister.

Today, should we decide to enact this Bill, we will be taking a major step forward not only in economically empowering the previously disadvantaged of our Province, but also in promoting transparency, equity and efficiency, characteristics sadly lacking in the present Act.

The Bill and its associated affirmative procurement policy will facilitate SMMEs in tendering for provincial contracts.  The simplification of tender procedures and formalities linked to assistance which will be provided by the regional offices, will address some of the problems SMMEs currently face.  But it is the lack of tendering skills that will become the next barrier for small, medium and micro enterprises.

For people to derive full benefit from this Bill and out of the policies they will certainly need training.  By this I do not mean just being taught how to fill in a tender form.  That may well suffice for certain people who are merely fronts for establishments and experienced business, it made suffice for those, but certainly in all seriousness, tendering is not just about price, it is about delivery of quality goods and service at a competitive price and this is a fundamental principle that cannot be escaped.

Tender training needs, need to be addressed and should we fail to, even the best intentions of this Bill and our policies will never be fulfilled and the tendering process will become a mere farce.  We the Government of this Province need to become proactive in providing this training.

There are many other pitfalls associated with affirmative action and in this case, affirmative procurement which could nullify all the benefits that we hoped to achieve.  Besides the danger of making an already few rich far wealthier, and we certainly have seen our fair share of that happening in this Province, an even worse situation will arise.  When we intend uplifting people and once having achieved that, these policies then become a permanent crutch on which they become dependent.  Dependency is a real danger and to this end this Bill should have a shelf life, certainly a sell by date to motivate people into action.  If people know that it is part of a five year or a ten year programme they will soon get going and take advantage of it.

We in this country have experienced more than 40 years of affirmative action and it was that affirmative action which played a role in the downfall of the last Government.  I warn that we need to take precautions.

Hon members this Bill in clause 9(d)(1), emphasises the competitive nature of the tendering process, which is essential in ensuring efficient procurement, which also means efficient spending of taxpayer's money, which also ties into efficient delivery of services to people and this is basically what Government is all about.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I wish to support this Bill.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Aulsebrook.  I now call upon Dr Sutcliffe for six minutes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  We too have pleasure in supporting the adoption of this Bill and certainly would like to congratulate the MEC of Finance, for initiating this process in October last year, and ensuring that we in fact could revise that Bill.  It is quite true that at almost every Finance Committee meeting since 1994, when we passed the first Act there had been requests from the Department to ensure that we received an amended version, and it was really only late last year that that process was begun.

Certainly what we have before us today is a document we believe of real quality.  A document that says that we want to simplify the process of tendering, we want to make sure it is accessible, we want to ensure there is affirmative action and quite frankly we are talking about past discrimination, we are not talking about some vague sense of discrimination where everyone can pop up today and say, "I am being discriminated against".  We must redress those social inequities.  Those racist discriminations of the past.

In that sense it is an Act that really begins to place that on the table.  It is an Act that has some unique features too.  A feature of an appeals tribunal which is often unheard of.  Often Tender Boards say their decision is final, we are saying it is not completely final.  Ultimately in fact there is a means of recourse for people who are disaffected.

But also what is quite unique about this Bill, and compared to other Bills is that we are saying that politicians are the ones who set policy.  It is not for independent boards or civil servants to set policy.  That in fact Cabinet, and in this Province our Cabinet must in fact be setting policy.  They are the ones, the buck will stop there.  If they do the wrong things, the electorate is going to ensure, that at the next elections they will be voted out.

We have got to start that process again where we distinguish very distinctly between those who set policy, and those who implement policy and in that sense this is quite a unique feature of this Bill.

My introductory comments just also focuses on the process side because it is true that we had to rush this Bill at the moment.  We have waived three Rules in effect and that is something we do not deal with lightly, but we were faced with a very tough option.  If we did not do that it simply means many of these contracts with which we have problems, and I will mention one or two in a minute, they will simply carry on and on and on.  By the time we get to the new Tender Board Act it will be another six months of problematic contracts.  This allows us to get on with that job and start this new financial year freshly.

There are three aspects of the principles I will touch on quite quickly.  The first is a principle of equity which does not always mean equality.  Equity means that you are actually looking at the circumstances within which people find themselves, which is often the product of a history from which they have come.  The idea that we issue long forms and say to some person who has had no experience, they have built hundreds of houses.  If you look at informal settlements in this Province we have a huge capacity, a resource of people who are builders, home builders but yet not one of them could probably fill in a tender form, not one of those builders could fill it in.  We are now saying we are doing something about that.  So equity is an absolutely fundamental requirement.

Efficiency is what we are saying is a key principle here as well.  We want to operate in a way in which, when tenders are set we get conclusions and we get results to those tenders and if we do not have efficiency we as a Province are going to basically lose out there.

Thirdly, we want empowerment not enrichment.  It is most disturbing that you find today, often the same clique of people, joining each other in the same clique of companies where persons, individuals are getting enriched, but we are not empowering a whole new generation of entrepreneurs.

The Malaysian example of affirmative action was a very clear one.  There they set quotas often as high as 30% but the importance of that to the Malaysian economy was it broadened the base of the entrepreneurial sector.  It did not just mean that some individuals who were disadvantaged in the past became enriched, a whole generation became enriched and that is what we must do, is to empower rather than simply enrich there.

That enrichment is something that is crippling us.  Quite frankly in some of the questions some of us have posed which will hopefully be answered quite soon, it is most disturbing that you hear in departments like Public Works, there are senior officials, who actually are involved in handing out contracts to companies in which their children or their relatives in fact have interests in.  That the same set of companies and the like often keep coming up.  We have got to ensure that we get to the bottom of that and I hope that when we begin to address that, we will begin to enquire into it, we will look at it and address it more effectively.

So we are in a phase of real transformation now and this Bill goes a long way along that road of ensuring it will begin that transformation programme there.

Finally then my comments, I would hope that with the new, let us call it regime coming into effect today with the new Premier, that in fact it is very clear that this Legislature itself means business.  Passing three Bills in one afternoon, having the budget speech as well as electing a new Premier indicates we are on a new path there.  While one might say it is slightly coincidental, certainly I believe that it is the start that we really require now for a new phase, a phase that is not just talking about amalgamating previous administrations, but a phase now that says we are into a phase of real democracy, a phase of real liberation.

With those few comments thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Dr Sutcliffe.  I now call upon Mr Haygarth.  Mr Haygarth, you have got eight minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  As it is my first speech since the Premier was elected, I would like to take the opportunity of congratulating him and assuring him of our support in all matters, as we go forward together in such things as the Tender Board Bill which he has taken such a great interest in.

The objectives of the Bill are very laudable, are supported by the party and are set out clearly in the long title of the Bill.

However, it is interesting to note, and previous speakers have made the point, of the efforts that are going to be made in the training and education of people, in so far as the implementation of the Bill is concerned, in so far as the stakeholders who will be tenderers and will be operating in terms of this achievement.

What we have to be careful of is the non-compatibility of certain of the objectives.  For example, on the first two, the small, medium and micro enterprises, together with measures designed to protect or advance persons or categories of persons disadvantaged by the past, are one category.  On the other hand, immediately following that, you are to create conditions which are conducive to the empowerment of heads of departments and to create a procurement system which is competitive and cost effective.

Now the two are not necessarily compatible and great skill is necessary in adjudicating tenders in a way in which it becomes fair to those persons who are in the categories, the first two categories that I named, and those persons, the taxpayers who are affected by the implications of competitiveness and cost effectiveness, for which they are required to pay in the long term.

That is only one group of stakeholders that are involved.  The one objective is to create conditions which are conducive to the empowerment of the SMMEs.  Now the success or otherwise of that objective, will be dependent on the stakeholders who sit in the bowels of departments of this institution, and who write the specifications and draw plans for the actual operation of that particular tender.

Now many of these people need to make a paradigm shift because they have been trained, they have been trained to use mechanical means, they have been trained to build assets which are significant and which require or do not require labour and the SMME.

Now it is not true to say, that many of these works cannot be built by small enterprises.  I give you the example from India, where they actually built a very large dam using 250 000 people with wheelbarrows.  Now to get somebody in this country to build a dam in that way you would have to have a significant paradigm shift if you are going to achieve it, because simply the people they do not want to build it that way.  They have been trained differently.

So what I am saying is, that the message has to go down from the Tender Board itself, when the documents come to them.  It has to get to the people who are actually designing those documents, to make sure that the laudable objectives of this Bill are in fact implemented, because simply if you do not get to the starting point things will not change.

Now the next thing that I wish to deal with is the significant change that has taken place between the 1994 Bill or Act and this one where an appeals tribunal has been introduced.  Now that is a significant opportunity, to eradicate the feelings which we heard at the public hearings, of people who have made tenders or made offers and have heard nothing about the outcome.  The appeals tribunal, if properly used and worked, can be of significant assistance in the ongoing process of educating all the stakeholders in the operation of the system.

Then finally, I want to refer to the specialist panel.  Now that also is a unique creation and it is provided for in section 24, and is required to supervise the tender process, ensure that the principles and policies of the Board have been complied with and to make recommendations to the Board of matters arising therefrom.

When we reconsider this Act and its operations presumably in six months time, we need to have had a report on the success or otherwise of the procurement policy.  We need to know what the costs are of the affirmative action and the other things which are taking place.  We need to understand clearly how the departments have been responding to the need to create the conditions conducive to this work taking place.

We also need to ensure that the Minister and the Cabinet in making appointments to the Tender Board, the appeals tribunal and the specialist panel receives the support of people who have a vision, a similar vision to what is envisaged here, and who are prepared to dedicate themselves to the task of achieving change, because it is not an easy one.  It is simply not an easy one and you require dedication of all of the persons involved at that level together with the stakeholders throughout the system.  Without them participating fully in this we will not achieve the desired success that we do.  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  I then call upon Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, the Tender Bill is certainly one of the most influential measures in the Province, because it regulates the procurement of the biggest spender, and that is the Provincial Government.

Procurements, incorrectly regulated, could lead to gross distortions in the economy of this Province and also in the welfare of the people who live in it.  It can result either in expensive purchasing of goods and services, which is a loss to the taxpayers or the disguising of vested interests of people who benefit, who have an inside track.  Alternatively going the other way, when one starts to favour some people with a system of preferences which are not properly considered, and lose sight of the main objective and that is that of cost effective delivery to the people.

This Bill was urgently required and was completed in a short space of time.  Nevertheless, we are satisfied that it strikes a very valuable and correct balance and it reflects also the spirit of the Constitution of the country.

There are of course conflicting, perhaps mutually exclusive goals if incorrectly handled, but these we believe are properly addressed by the new measures such as those referred to by my hon colleague Mr Haygarth.  The appeals tribunal which is an avenue for people who feel aggrieved, to actually go back to the tender process and to voice their grievances and perhaps even have them rectified.

Secondly too, there is the specialist panel which will ensure that the spirit of the Bill is carried through, not only in the main Board but throughout the departments.

What we must achieve in the adjudication of the procurements of the Province are three things.  Equity, efficiency and representivity.

Equity is catered for in this Bill by the provision that there will be policy with regard to preferences for certain previously disadvantaged organisations, so that they too can become part of the process.  It is also provided for in section 9(1)(d), of the Bill where it says that even the lowest offers to specification need not necessarily be accepted but then only after approval of the Cabinet and also in terms of procurement policy.

Then there are also other duties certainly which cater for equity.  The duty of the Board to provide an advisory service is one of the most crucial things.  So often we have found that small tenderers are simply not able to compete because they do not understand the first step in the process, that of accessing the tender process of tabling tenders that comply with specifications and with the requirements of the tender.  This we think is absolutely crucial.  If we fail in this, if we fail in the education of people who have not previously been involved, we will certainly never ever be able to offer them the opportunities that exist.

Secondly efficiency: The Bill does certainly place the responsibility on the Board to ensure the best value to the Province.  We see it in section 8(1), but also again in section 9(d)(1).

Then lastly, representivity, and we find that in section 3, that is taken care of where there is a requirement of a spread in the Board, the Tender Board, with persons coming from the backgrounds of commerce and industry, labour, SMMEs, the development sector even the Bureau of Standards and the Human Sciences Research Council.  We believe that spread is essential to ensure a Board that can take into account all the challenges facing the procurement in this Province.

We certainly know there are little warts in this Bill because of the short space of time in which it was handled, but we welcome the passing of this Bill, and we believe it will do a great deal of good for this Province.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I think while the hon Minister threw accolades to those members of the Finance Portfolio Committee, for breaking all records in respect of overhauling the Bill in 24 hours we also must publicly acknowledge the role of the hon Minister.  I think he surprised us all on Monday morning at 7:00am in Pietermaritzburg, when he arrived there from Empangeni fully prepared and having done all his research.

The Minister expressed a wish to say we have to get rid of a bad Act, and in spite of the discrepancy, in spite of the warts, it will be better for us today to have a new legislation and we worked as one family.  We rose above party politics because this was in the interests of the wider society.

Therefore I want to say to the hon Minister the day he signs this legislation and makes it law, you are bringing cheer to many, many people in the Province.  But that cheer can be diminished.  If we do not heed the good advice given by our well experienced former town clerk, the hon Mr Gordon Haygarth, when he said the official who is going to draw the specification, the official who is going to prepare things at ground floor level can motivate somebody in and motivate somebody out.

You know, we required a change in the Minister to get responses to the fact that that Act was an outdated Act, but we know that our Big Ben will do things in a big way.  He took the big decisions, he took the bull by the horns and we now have a Bill.  I want the hon Minister to take note, let us take Italy.  Italy thrives on small business.

AN HON MEMBER:  A polecat

MR A RAJBANSI:  Of course there is one person who only knows one word, "Polecat".  Let him be drowned in that stupidity.  Then let us look at the German State, the president who came here and said our State is the richest in Germany because we promote SMME.  I want to make an appeal to the hon Minister.  The procurement policy is distinct from the promotion of SMME.  What we need is a proper procurement policy acceptable to everyone.  We need legislation to promote SMME in our Province.  We must never make the mistake to say this Bill promotes SMME.  It is just a procurement policy.

Therefore, I want to say to the hon Minister, we can only bring relief to those who did not get the relief.  If everyone right from the lowest official to the Tender Board plays the game and all that I say, if I have to give this Bill another name I will call it the Bread and Butter Bill, where the butter is now going to be spread throughout the bread and not only in one corner of the bread.  We will remain as watchdogs with the eyes of an eagle and as I said the other day with the tenacity of tigers.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Mkhwanazi, you also have another three minutes, sir.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, we wish to support the Bill and we wish further to congratulate the Minister and the members of the Finance Committee for having woken up so early, without having breakfast.  Perhaps that is why they did such good work, because they appreciate that there are people who live their lives, without having breakfast in the morning.

We are encouraged by this Bill, particularly where it says the members of the Board will be taken from all the structures of our community, and as it is reflected in clause 3(2), where it is said that even the disabled will be taken care of.  I am very much encouraged by the fact that even the people from the rural areas will be considered.  Amakhosi and other people in the rural areas to be members of the Board.

I think the Minister will have a realistic problem, because it says there in 3(1), he must have members who collectively possess requisite skills and experience.

Now some of these people named there have no skills and have no experience.  It is not because they are lazy or because they did not know, they were made not to have skills and experience.  So the Minister has to consider that, that there will be a need to consider, that here is a good person but this person has no skill and has no experience.

Well, it says to him that he must ensure as practicable as possible.  I think that is the key word.  This goes further even in the allocation of tenders.  We know that the big companies who have had, I can call them by name, the Murray and Roberts and others, subsequently perhaps when they give tenders they are able even to undercut the small person because they have cushions.  They have cushioned their expenses.  At the same time they also boast that they have the experience, we can finish the job in such and such a time, we have equipment, we have all kinds of things.

Please, Mr Minister, those people who do not have that equipment, it is not because it is their choice, it is because of our past history.  I support the Bill.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mkhwanazi.  Mrs Downs, you have three minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I am going to do something that is probably very politically incorrect.  I am actually going to personalise this Bill, because my husband is a small contractor and he has been disadvantaged, not because of his race but because of his circumstances in the past.

Some years ago he had to make a decision whether to be unemployed or self-employed, and he chose to be self-employed, and it has not been an easy road.  In his travels and in his trying to get work and contracting, he is a very technically able person, but in trying to get big contracts he encountered some of these problems.

One of the things that he encountered was specifications being drawn by a tenderer on behalf of a client, to give himself an advantage.  His own lack of financial credentials, because of his circumstances he did not have money in the bank to put up guarantees, a lot of times big tenders ask for financial guarantees for completion of work on time and also, because he did not have capital to purchase equipment that was supposed to be delivered, it actually precluded him from carrying out work that he was technically perfectly capable of doing.

One of the things that stopped him from getting some of the jobs was when people were asking for bribes, which he totally refused to be involved in, and an inherent discrimination of small businesses where the thinking is that small businesses do not have expertise and technical capability.  Very often this is not the case, it is just that they wish to remain independent and closed shops, where work is always given to the same people.

Now having looked at this tender Bill those few things that I have written down here, they are mostly addressed and so in that respect both as a party and on a personal level, I know that our party is greatly for the empowering of small, medium and micro businesses and on a personal level, for someone like my husband, this is a boon.  So we heartily support it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  I will now call upon Mr I C Meer.  You have seven minutes, sir.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, since the KwaZulu-Natal Parliament came into existence under Act No 200 of 1993, to my mind this particular Bill, which is about to become law, is one of the most important work produced by those from this Legislature appointed to do that work.  I want to compliment that in that long walk towards reaching this important milestone we have at the head of the last lap of this long relay, Minister Ben Ngubane.  I want to correct the hon Mr Rajbansi when he says he was surprised.  I was not surprised at all, when at 7 o'clock in the morning in Pietermaritzburg, the hon Minister of Finance, who is now also the Premier was there to do his work.

I learnt from the hon Minister's lecturer in sociology, that when he was a young student, he was the brightest and the hardest working student she has ever had in her many years of experience at the university.  So I was not surprised from that information I had.

I want to say that this particular law puts corruption to flight.  To me that is the most important thing.  It puts corruption to flight in that we have cut the wings of that evil bird that carries corruption.  We have taken every possible measure to prevent either the recipient of the tender to offer a bribe or any other form of bribe.  Now this is in theory.

We must also say this, that when this document was first presented to us it was very raw.  Perhaps we can appeal to those in charge of the first draft to see that they make a better job of it.

But with all that, because there were so many aspects of it which required going into, the Portfolio Committee under the worthy Chairpersonship of Mr Dumisani Makhaye, we worked collectively, we worked hard and we thought of every possible way of creating a tool, which would put fear in the heart of anyone who wants to achieve gains by illegal means.

Therefore we present before this House a law, which is worthy of respect, because it has taken into account all aspects of our past and present in this transition period.  It speaks volumes in favour of those who were disadvantaged in the past.  It speaks for honesty.  It speaks for a situation, in which this Province can reach its economic height with the right type of people having the power given to them by this Legislature.

With these words, sir, I have great pleasure in saying that we collectively bring to this Legislature a piece of legislation of which we are proud.  We hope this Parliament will be proud and we hope in the future, posterity will be proud with what has been produced.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  It is now my pleasure to call upon the Minister to reply to the debate please.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to ask the hon Ismail Meer to thank my former professor for still continuing to give me good grades.  [LAUGHTER]

Well, I am really thankful that this debate has gone so positively.  The contributions have been very helpful to the further development of policy and regulations around this Bill.  We know that Bills can become enacted into law but if the regulations and the policy structures do not ensure efficiency and effective control, the objectives aimed at by the Act may not be realised.

This has come out very clearly here, that because we did not have the 21 day period of public hearings, there will still be opportunity for the important stakeholders, that we try to serve, to submit recommendations for further amendments.  In other words, there is going to be organic growth of this Act when it is enacted.  There is going to be continuing dialogue with those people affected.  There is going to be continuing participation by this House in the process.

Government has to collect revenues, it has to redistribute for welfare, the revenues collected.  Equally so, this Bill redistributes opportunity.  Mr Rajbansi was correct that we cannot claim to promote SMMEs out of this, but we say we are seriously levelling the playing field so that new entrants can come in.

However, we have an obligation and I accept this from Mr Haygarth, that training is absolutely fundamental to creating opportunity.  To say to a person you can fly to the moon without first training him to make a rocket is actually mocking him.  So we are not going to mock those people who have been excluded in the past and say the chances are open for you, what else do you want.  We shall go out and see to it that advice centres are established in all the regions of our country, and that officials from Government departments concerned with soliciting tenders, do play a role in training people as to how to address issues of specification, issues of quality and issues of sustainability of supplies once the contracts are awarded.

Mr Speaker, once more, this has been a wonderful day for me.  I do not think I will ever have a day like this in my life where everything goes so well.  I can only hope that we will continue to work as a House closely together, in co-operation with of course the rest of our constituencies, in that we will be transparent, we will bring them in terms of their concerns and we will continue to provide a dynamic leadership to the growth and development of this Province.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now take this opportunity to put to the House the question in relation to a proposal in the Committee's report to waive rules 124 and 125.  

RULES 124 AND 125 ARE WAIVED 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Having agreed to that I now put the question on the Bill as a whole.

KWAZULU-NATAL TENDER BOARD AMENDMENT BILL, 1997 - PASSED

The Bill has been passed unanimously.  I further then call upon the Secretary to read the short tile of the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Tender Board Amendment Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.



10.	KWAZULU-NATAL PEACE AMENDMENT BILL, 1997

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I unfortunately again call upon the Minister of Safety and Security to then introduce the Bill.  Mr Ngubane.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Safety and Security):   Thank you.  I was not well prepared for this Bill so I will read the memorandum as a form of presentation.

EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM ON THE KWAZULU-NATAL PEACE AMENDMENT BILL, 1996

	The KwaZulu-Natal Peace Act, 1995 (Act No 3 of 1995), hereinafter referred to as the "Act" provides inter alia that the "Peace Committee shall consist of ...".  The use of the words "... shall consist of ..." has been construed as connoting peremptoriness and thus presupposes that until such time that the membership of the Peace Committee is constituted in terms of the Act there can be no Peace Committee as envisaged by the Act.  Further, although provisions catering for the termination of the membership of the Peace Committee had been made when the Act was drafted, it has since been realised that the said provisions are not exhaustive.

	In order to ensure that despite a vacancy in the Peace Committee, the Peace Committee does or continues to execute the functions for which it is instituted, a proviso has been inserted providing that the existence of any vacancy shall not affect the proceedings of the Peace Committee.

	The amendment also provides for a number of circumstances under which the membership of the Peace Committee will be regarded as having been terminated, for example, if the member dies, or ceases to be the representative of the Minister, political party, religious group etcetera.

Now this is a very logical amendment because it seems to remedy a shortcoming in the formulation of the Act.  It is a natural process that there be attrition, that there will be losses of members, that some people may get sick and be incapacitated and this particular amendment caters for that eventuality.  I thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now call upon the Chairperson of the Safety and Security Portfolio Committee, Mr Cele.  You have eight minutes, sir.

AN HON MEMBER:  Eight minutes.

MR B H CELE:  Mr Speaker, I have just been put in a helter-skelter by my Minister over there, because on behalf of the Committee I was supposed to read the memorandum.  [LAUGHTER]  I am often told that time is money so I will just take two minutes of my time and expect six minutes to be paid back in terms of money.

We will definitely endorse what the Minister has said and one cannot say more than that with the hope that the Peace Act will be developing, it is definitely not stagnant.  At a later stage we might be called upon again to come with other amendments, and we hope those amendments will only strengthen the peace in the Province on which we are working so hard to achieve one day.  With those few words, I would like to thank the Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Cele.  That was wonderful.  It is a record.  I will therefore call upon Mrs Galea for four minutes.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  As the hon member has said, the amendments have been covered by the two previous speakers so I just want to cover a few concerns of mine.

Last year the Premier's Department was busy drawing up the advertisement for the position of the director of the Peace Committee, as the then director was only in an acting capacity.  The applications have been submitted and now we have to interview these candidates for the position.

My concern is at the last meeting we had, we only had seven members present.  I appeal to all parties who have representatives on the Peace Committee to please ensure that their members attend.  We do have a schedule of programmes on which our meetings are on and they could also check with the Peace Committee if it is still going to be held.

The other thing is, as I mentioned, at the last meeting seven members were present and we also have this document here by Mr Edwards.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS C E GALEA:  Yes.  We share and share alike.  The other concern is that this document here by Mr Edwards and the Department of the Premier too, we have a subcommittee which was formed two meetings ago.  I appeal to these members of the subcommittee, unfortunately we did not actually choose a chairperson, but if that subcommittee could please convene because there are many things that have to be passed and the longer we take the longer the peace structure seem to be, they are not in disarray but they could fall in disarray.

There was one more thing.  Yes, this has also affected our displacee's programme.  We also had to get a security gate for the peace building at Port Shepstone.  Decisions could not be made.  So I appeal to my colleagues in the interest of peace and tolerance amongst each other, let us try and get it to work.  In closing I support the amendments.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mrs Galea.  Mr Burrows, you have two minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Two minutes, I think you said.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Two minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Two minutes, I just want to point out we have...

AN HON MEMBER:  You are wasting your time.

MR R M BURROWS:  Chair, very quickly, the Peace Amendment Bill we support, but I have a feeling that the Minister of Safety and Security will want to give attention to the existence of the Peace Act as it is presently constituted.  My colleague has made mention of frequent meetings that are non-quorate and decisions are not being made.  We have had problems regarding alleged fraudulent activity in the peace secretariat staff itself.  That received the attention of Mr Edwards in his report that we need to finalise and work on.  There has been a suggestion that the administration be taken over by the civilian secretariat of the Minister.  That needs to be re-examined.

Finally, we need to ensure that the funding that is going to victims and to refugees to return, is made explicitly to them and not swallowed up by a bureaucracy.  I have a feeling that in the present state of matters, we have moved away from when the Act was originally passed, and we really need to actually apply our minds as to whether we do not want to fairly considerably alter the provisions of the Peace Act as it is currently in existence.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That was excellent.  I now call upon Mr Konigkramer.  Mr Konigkramer, you have got five minutes, sir.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I will be brief.  I want to just say by way of opening, that I hope that it is propitious that this Bill is being considered by this House today and that it might be passed, following the election of the new Premier and the remarks that were made on all sides of the House.  I think that is propitious.

Having said that, I think it is still sad that it is necessary in KwaZulu-Natal to have a Peace Act.  When we have really made progress in this Province and we have actually managed to stop violence, I hope that I shall be here when we actually repeal this Act one day.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR KONIGKRAMER:  I believe it cannot be gainsaid that we will never be able to build peace in this Province until there is justice.  If you want to build justice, you have got to make sure that the people on the ground actually experience that things have returned to normality.  They will then, I believe, learn to live in peace with each other and learn to be politically tolerant.

I want to make an observation in that regard.  I have said it at the Peace Committee before and I believe that we will not be able to make any more substantial progress in our efforts with peace, until such time as we have made it possible for those that have been displaced by violence to actually return home.  If that does not happen there will be no peace.

Now having said that, we know figures have been bandied around but it looks that there are as many as 500 000 people.  If we want to implement programmes like that, that is going to consume vast amounts of money and again it is I think significant today as we have been considering the budget that we all know that that money is not available.

So therefore, I believe we are going to have to try and devise ways and means to actually get this money, which I believe is the only way we are actually going to be able to tackle this programme of getting people back home.

I want to leave this House with a thought.  I have floated this idea at the Peace Committee before and I believe it is achievable.  I think what we should seriously consider in KwaZulu-Natal is a lottery which could be used to raise the money to fund this programme and I would suggest the following scenario.

I believe that if we went to the international community and we asked them for seed capital in order to float prizes for that lottery, and I think we should be ambitious in our programme, I believe it would be achievable to give prizes of say a million a month or maybe even every two weeks over a period of a year, I believe we could get that money.  I believe by doing that and if properly marketed, we could actually get the people of KwaZulu-Natal that have not been affected by violence, to actually invest in their own future, by engaging in this or taking part in this lottery scheme.  I believe we could raise the money necessary to actually fund this programme.  Although I am not a gambling man, I have no doubt in my mind that that is one that we will win.

Then just finally, I think it is also possibly propitious, that the same gentleman that has proposed this Bill today, also happens to be the Minister of Finance and that gentlemen is also in charge of lotteries.

So I would suggest to you that we should seriously look, we could possibly use KwaZulu-Natal Lotto as it currently exists or alternatively, we should look at a mechanism in the short term, before we bring in the big casinos to institute such a programme which would be able to raise the money needed to fund this programme to get people back home.  I support the amendments.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Konigkramer.  I now call upon Mr Rajbansi and sadly announce that you have one minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, I am trying to train as a racing commentator on another day.  Mr Speaker, any discussion on peace and the Peace Bill requires less work and more action.  I am very glad that the hon Mr Arthur Konigkramer has now begun to set the scene, casino site apparatus for development.  That is the language I will understand and will take the matter further.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I thought I had a record timekeeping but it does look like I was wrong.  I now call upon Mr Mkhwanazi who also has one minute.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, I stand up only to support the amendment.  The Peace Bill or the Peace law is the most important law because where there is no peace people perish.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, and that is more of a record than the previous one.  I now call upon Mrs Downs.  You also have one minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Sir, we just really look forward to a time where such an Act will not be necessary.  Having said that we support the amendments and please bear in mind the war that is being raged against women.  I did speak about it in the last session and I am just bringing it to your attention again.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  This record has been broken again.  I now call upon Mr Jeffery.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I see I am down for 15 minutes.  I would just like to assure you and the House and the hon Mr MacKenzie in particular, that I will not speak for 15 minutes.

Mr Speaker, the Bill is of a technical nature, it is technical amendments to the Peace Act.  The crucial thing is that the Peace Committee must get down to work.  We would like to start seeing reports being delivered to the House on the activities of the Peace Committee and we would like to see the Committee getting into action.

The 1999 elections are around the corner.  If those elections are going to be conducted freely and fairly, there has to be peace in the Province in all areas.  There needs to be political tolerance and the ability for political parties to be able to go to the people and sell their political views and their political ideas.

So with those words, Mr Speaker, I support the amendments and the Bill.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It is a record, it is a record although it did not break the former record.  Can I now call upon the Minister to please respond to the debate.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Safety and Security):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I will appeal to my colleagues, all of us, to do our duty by the Peace Committee.  It is sad to hear that there is absenteeism in a body or in a portfolio that is absolutely critical for the future of the prosperity of our Province.

I take the suggestion by the hon Mr Konigkramer seriously that we must find innovative ways to fund the peace process in the country.  It is our only guarantee of real growth and investment.

I think we can evolve this Peace Act, as someone said, into something that sustains families and homes and women and all the disadvantaged groups, through ensuring that programmes are run by Government for the benefit of those threatened or, you know, vulnerable communities.

For instance, family violence, home violence, child abuse in families, visiting programmes to monitor those weak families where these things happen.  I think it offers us tremendous potential to evolve a truly effective social safety net through the Peace Act.  I thank you very much.

HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That concludes the debate on the Peace Amendment Bill.  I now put the question in relation to the Bill.

KWAZULU-NATAL PEACE AMENDMENT BILL, 1997 - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Bill has been passed unanimously and I now call upon the Secretary to read the short title of the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Peace Amendment Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We are now going over to item 11.

11.	NCOP VOTING MANDATES: 

	(i)  KwaZulu-Natal Ingonyama Trust Amendment Bill.
	(ii) Council of Traditional Leaders Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  In terms of item 11, KwaZulu-Natal Ingonyama Trust Amendment Bill, amended on that one.

MR P POWELL:  Mr Speaker, I have pleasure in reporting that the Provincial Standing Committee on the National Council of Provinces has received a report from the Portfolio Committee on Traditional Affairs and Environment, and accordingly has unanimously agreed to support the Bill and a mandated voting position will accordingly be taken to Cape Town for the plenary session on 25 March in Cape Town.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Chairperson of the Committee.  The next mandate that is sought here is a mandate on the Council of Traditional Leaders Bill of the NCOP.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I wish to report that the National Council of Provinces Provincial Standing Committee has received a report from the Portfolio Committee on Traditional and Environment Affairs, and has failed to achieve the 75% majority required by the Rules of this House.  Accordingly I move the following motion.

MOTION

	The KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature mandates its delegation to the National Council of Provinces to vote against the Council of Traditional Leaders Bill, B25F/96, as approved and amended by the National Council of Provinces Select Committee on Constitutional Affairs and Public Administration and any amendments at the plenary meeting of the National Council of Provinces on 25 March 1997.

I move accordingly.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Hopefully that resolution will be tabled and it will be brought forward.

MR P POWELL:  Mr Speaker, that resolution must be placed in terms of the Rules for a vote before the House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, I was referring to the copy to be brought forward and given to this House.  There has been a resolution moved. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER PUTS THE QUESTION
THE RESOLUTION AS MOVED BY MR P POWELL - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Resolution has been passed with a majority vote.

MR P POWELL:  In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution, we are obliged to mandate our special delegates to carry the provincial vote in the NCOP and I move the following resolution:

	In terms of section 61(4) of the Constitution it is hereby resolved that this, the Legislature of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the concurrence of the Premier and the leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party and the African National Congress on this the 19th of March 1997 that Dr B S Ngubane, Inkosi N Ngubane, Dr Z L Mkhize, Mr S N Mtetwa be and are hereby designated as special delegates of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial delegation to the National Council of Provinces for the purpose of voting at the plenary session on 25 March 1997.

I move accordingly.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  A resolution has been moved.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER PUTS THE QUESTION
THE RESOLUTION AS MOVED BY MR P POWELL - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The resolution has been unanimously passed.  Thank you.  That concludes our item on the NCOP voting mandates.  
I now wish to introduce an item that may not reflect in the copies of your Order Papers.  You will remember that Mr Haygarth had moved a resolution in terms of section 104(g) of the Rules which we said must go through consultation and that I was going to allocate a slot for it to be finally dealt with during today's business.  I have now secured the Minister's contribution to that resolution and hopefully that will resolve the matter.  Mr Minister.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, in an effort to contribute to a solution to the problem, I have had the opportunity to study the content of the proposed motion.  Most of the information required in terms of the motion, in fact all the information would be supplied by my Department and my Ministry.  I give an undertaking to the House, having studied the motion, that without it being necessary to pass a motion of the House, that I will supply the information inasmuch as that I am able to obtain it all, to all members of the House in time for use in the budget session in May.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That surely takes care of our problem.  Procedurally it means then that the motion has no support.  We will then await the Minister's action on that issue.

I now call upon the Premier to make such announcements as he may, remembering that that slot was shifted to the last of the business of the day.  Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I have no announcements to make other than to say let us all go and say a good farewell to Nyanda.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  That concludes the business of today which then leaves me with no option but to adjourn this House sine die.  The House is adjourned sine die.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED SINE DIE AT 17:51




